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relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

peterbr — Wed, 11 Jan 2023 15:10:02 GMT

Hello

Last month Lothian Broadband started to rollout FTTP in our area (Pathhead) . Digging up pavements and putting in fibre cable and cabinets.

This seems to be a private initiative by Lothian Broadband, they own the fibre infrastructure and no other providers have access to it, not even BT. The result is that BT Infinity plans for rolling out FCCP have been pushed way into the future. Residents now have the choice to stay on FTTC using any provider that offers internet, phone and other services or switch to a FCCP for which Lothian Broadband seem to have the monopoly.

Looks like if BT wants to roll out FTTP, they have to dig up the roads again and install an other fibre infrastructure. This seems a massive waist of money and effort.

I am trying to understand how this situation is allowed to happen. It seems to go against the original breakup of BT to allow other provider having access to the tech infrastructure.

Anyone who has some info on who is responsible for authorisation of such private projects to go ahead?

Regards Peter

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

pippincp — Wed, 11 Jan 2023 15:34:05 GMT

No other provider has access to Openreach's Tech Infrastructure, just poles and ducts (PIA). As Lothian are digging up roads it would appear they are not using PIA.

There are AltNets springing up all over the UK.

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

peterbr — Thu, 12 Jan 2023 01:00:03 GMT

Please can you check with local BT Openreach on the situation. It is my understanding that Lothian Broadband somewhere made a connection with the BT Fibre structure.

In our area all houses are still connected with copper to poles , FC cabinets are in close vicinity of the Ford exchange.
It seems Lothian Broadband are making FTTP connections between houses and the BT FC cabinets and put extra cabinets in place .

My point is that they seem now have a monopoly on FTTP connections , BT's plans for such a connection are practically taken off the table, leaving residents with a non competitive FTTP offering in the villages.

This does not seen right in the light of infrastructure providing telco services should be open to all tech service providers.

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

Keith_Beddoe — Thu, 12 Jan 2023 06:41:53 GMT

@peterbr

Welcome to this user forum for BT Retail phone and broadband customers.

This is just a customer to customer help forum, everyone here, including myself, are just customers.

The only BT Employees are the forum moderators.

BT Openreach does not exist, its just Openreach

Nobody on this forum can help with Openreach, you would have to contact them yourself.

https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/when-to-get-in-touch-with-openreach

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

pippincp — Thu, 12 Jan 2023 12:46:10 GMT

I can see you don't understand how FTTP is provided and are making assumptions.

First FTTP isn't supplied by anyone from an FTTC cabinet, it doesn't have the capacity, it comes from the head end.

Openreach currently use G-PON technology for FTTP, Lothian use XGS-PON.

"Lothian Broadband is extending a future-proof fibre network to over 70,000 premises across Scotland. The altnet is transitioning away from fixed wireless access, having Adtran design, build and commission a modern access and core network. Adtran is using its multi-gigabit XGS-PON access solutions and its technology partners for the core network build. Adtran worked to connect this new network to regional transit providers allowing Lothian Broadband to scale FTTP services across areas of Scotland that have been left underserved by other commercial fibre rollouts. The altnet maintains a target premise yield of 99% to ensure every community is connected to reliable Gigabit broadband, not just the areas that are easy to reach.

“When we made the decision to transition from fixed wireless access to fibre, the only choice was Adtran. The company offers industry-leading platforms and professional services for core network design, access network migration and transit provider management,” said Gavin Rogers, CEO at Lothian Broadband. “Pairing its FTTP technology with its partner’s core network infrastructure, Adtran is creating a complete end-to-end solution for us that can scale to meet our rapid build plans. Our new fibre network will ultimately allow us to become the broadband leader and allow the communities we service to be connected to new digital applications and economic opportunities.”

The Adtran end-to-end fibre broadband solution includes the Adtran 10G fibre access platform with XGS-PON technology and Adtran’s cloud software. XGS-PON technology will enable Lothian Broadband to build a scalable fibre access network to support customers’ capacity demands today and in the future."

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220914005147/en/Lothian-Broadband-Helps-Close-the-Scottish-Fibre-Gap-with-Turnkey-Network-from-Adtran

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

peterbr — Thu, 12 Jan 2023 18:18:43 GMT

Thanks very much for a detailed technical explanation.

It does seem to indicate that MidlotianBroadband now has the monopoly on providing fibre broadband based services in areas where this solution is put in place. Current providers using the openreach infrastructure are excluded from having access.
Am I right in that if those providers would like to provide broadband , phone and streaming services they depend on Openreach to put in their FTTP solution. Meaning more cables need to be installed, roads dug up again. Seems such a waist of money and effort.

In our area the openreach exchange is just down the road, 800m, so not really a difficult to reach community for rolling out fibre based broadband

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

imjolly — Thu, 12 Jan 2023 18:25:05 GMT

As already posted FTTP does not come from the exchange or the green cabinets many of the openreach installation are provided using the existing telephone poles so no digging required. How is your existing phone line provided to your home?

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

jac_95 — Thu, 12 Jan 2023 18:47:58 GMT

@peterbr

Lothian broadband is an alternative Network provider (AltNet) who have built their on full fibre network.

Lots of these types of companies popping up around the UK.

They have nothing to do with Openreach bar maybe paying to use some of their ducts and poles. The tubes of fibre optics and network however will belong to the AltNet which Openreach won't use and BT Consumer as a service provider probably won't use as a wholesaler.

This YouTube video gives a good explanation about the Full Fibre gold rush (the decade of full fibre) : https://youtu.be/ByFY-3Z0wxY

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

licquorice — Thu, 12 Jan 2023 19:40:29 GMT

@peterbr Its called free market competition.

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

iniltous — Thu, 12 Jan 2023 22:30:16 GMT

There are dozens of Alt Nets ( Alternative Networks ), some areas may have the choice of several Alt Nets as well as Openreach, some may have one Alt Net and Openreach, some may have Openreach only , Alt Nets have free range to build where and when they want , some will build completely new infrastructure, and will build and own their own ducts, poles , joint boxes etc., some will use PIA ( physical infrastructure access ) an arrangement imposed on Openreach requiring Openreach to allow Alt Nets to use Openreach poles, ducts , joint boxes etc., many use a mixture of PIA and their own infrastructure…no other network provider has to allow competitors to access their network, only Openreach have this imposition.

If an Alt Net builds in an area and offers FTTP before Openreach or anyone else, it isn’t necessarily going to push Openreach plans for installation of their own FTTP back , in fact in some areas , to hang onto their existing market share , they start their own rollout earlier than originally planned, but in the short term , if this Alt Net is now in a position to be already offering FTTP service , and their business plan is to be a network supplier and the exclusive ISP on that network, that’s up to them, what’s up to you and your ‘neighbours’ , is to either make use of this network and become a customer of theirs, or not use them.

This Alt Net only has a monopoly in that they don’t have to allow others access to their network, but it’s not a monopoly in the accepted sense that there is nothing stopping either Openreach or another Alt Net entering the area with another competitor FTTP network , to compete with them .

FYI, this is a BT Consumer forum , not an Openreach one , so enquiries about the Openreach FTTP rollout are not answerable by BT , BT have no more influence on where OR chose to build FTTP , and the likely timescales , than any other company , like Sky or Talk Talk , that also use Openreach , currently BT only use Openreach networks , and are not likely to ever use anyone else , other ISP may use multiple networks if that’s in their interest, but that would be an arrangement between the Alt Net and the ISP, nothing to do with Openreach or BT, there is no such entity as BT Openreach

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

peterbr — Fri, 13 Jan 2023 09:31:17 GMT

Glad the same does not apply to gas and electricity providers, so why not for fibre infrastructure. One should be enough for all providers to compete on and it would be a lot cheaper to just rollout a single finre infrastructure.

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

imjolly — Fri, 13 Jan 2023 10:01:00 GMT

why don't you suggest that to virgin?

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

licquorice — Fri, 13 Jan 2023 11:37:06 GMT

@peterbr wrote:

Glad the same does not apply to gas and electricity providers, so why not for fibre infrastructure. One should be enough for all providers to compete on and it would be a lot cheaper to just rollout a single finre infrastructure.

You clearly have no idea how comms infrastructure works.

It is not a common supply to each property as electricity and gas is, it is individual circuits.

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

peterbr — Sat, 14 Jan 2023 19:07:52 GMT

It is not but should be

and why can this work on an openreach infrastructure, there are multiple service providers operating on that, all using the smae connection the houses.

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

jac_95 — Sat, 14 Jan 2023 19:24:08 GMT

More drive, competition and choice is a good thing no?

It's policy and open market competition.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8392/

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/06/altnet-full-fibre-isps-target-29-9-million-uk-premises-by-2025.html

https://www.ookla.com/articles/fibre-altnets-fixed-broadband-performance-gigabit-uk-q3-2022

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

peterbr — Fri, 03 Feb 2023 10:21:25 GMT

Just spoke to an engineer who is blowing the actual fibres and he confirmed that the network is connected via an external cabinet infant of the local exchange to the exchange. So it does seem LB uses the Openreach back bone infrastructure here ( indirectly)

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

iniltous — Fri, 03 Feb 2023 10:55:58 GMT

As already stated , PIA , physical infrastructure access , they are allowed to put their own network inside Openreach ‘property’ , like ducts , poles, jointboxes , and exchanges ( although that is not strictly PIA )

The fact that this Alt Net may enter a BT exchange is because they can have arrangements to site their own equipment inside BT buildings , or more likely that’s the location they interface with their backhaul , or the backhaul of a company they use for that purpose.

Whatever they are doing has nothing to do with Openreach apart from they are allowed access to the physical assets Openreach have.

They will not be using any Openreach local network, they may at some level have transit type arrangements with BTw for backhaul services, but it’s more likely that they don’t

What exactly do you think an Openreach ‘backbone’ is ?

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

peterbr — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 15:32:40 GMT

the difference between openreach and other 'private' companies putting in fibre infrastructure:

Openreach Active in this area
We can bring ultrafast broadband to your business and community with a partnership that gives you a choice of communications provider through our network. Our FTTP network uses the latest technology and is already the UK’s largest, so join us to get maximum choice and value for your business

Website: https://www.communityfibre.openreach.co.uk

Bottom line is that for us residents to have a choice on providers, openreach is the only fibre infrastructure offering this.

Enough said about this topic.

Re: relationship between Lothian broadband and BT Infinity

iniltous — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 16:40:53 GMT

Lothian Broadband do not use Openreach as a network provider, may use PIA, they are a member of INCA , independent networks cooperative association, nothing to do with Openreach ( would hardly be independent if they were )

As you say , enough said on the subject, if you want to continue to believe that Lothian Broadband are a user of Openreach FTTP on a wholesale basis, that’s entirely up-to you , perhaps you can advise them that they are not shown on the list of FTTP providers that do use Openreach as their or one if their network providers .

https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/fttp-providers