This topic

Power lines and phone lines

Tafia — Fri, 25 Aug 2023 08:51:38 GMT

Hi, can fibre to the premises installation use existing electricity poles to carry the fibre cable if it is installed on the poles at least 30 inches below the low voltage electricity cables?

Otherwise it seems we may need to have an underground duct dug into the roadside to get the fibre cable to the house which would be much more expensive.

Thanks

Re: Power lines and phone lines

iniltous — Fri, 25 Aug 2023 10:21:59 GMT

OR cannot treat DNO poles like their own , but with the appropriate licence arrangements can and do use DNO power poles , a fairly reasonable assumption is if there is already copper dropwires on a power pole and the FTTP supply is simply going to replace the copper wire , (unless the copper service never was or now isn’t compliant with safety rules ) then the DNO licence will cover this , any new attachments ( so if the power pole has more than just copper dropwires , like a copper Distribution Point ) then the existing license may not cover any new attachments, so adding a CBT ( effectively a fibre DP ) cannot be done without examining the existing license or possibly applying for a new license to cover additional equipment.

If there is no OR equipment of any kind existing on the DNO pole , OR cannot just use them, even if it seems logical to the consumer to do so, especially if they suspect that not using them will result in excessive costs.

In general, if power poles currently carry the OR dropwire , the FTTP service will mirror that , if someone has ( for example ) power poles for the mains power supply and the ‘phone line’ is buried underground ( not ducted ) then these DNO poles almost certainly won’t be considered and either a new OR pole route ( if that’s even possible given the separation requirements between these services ) or a new ducted feed would be needed for FTTP , this possibly requiring a contribution from the consumer for it ( overhead or underground) to be provided

Re: Power lines and phone lines

Crimliar — Fri, 25 Aug 2023 11:52:29 GMT

It's a common arrangement in some of the pit villages around here that everything hangs off the same CAST IRON poles (always situated as close to the road as kerbs allow) - as has been said, just so long as the agreements are in place.

Re: Power lines and phone lines

Tafia — Sat, 26 Aug 2023 09:53:38 GMT

Many thanks for this very full response. Our phone line does sit on the power pole three poles away from me but then in 1967 was mole ploughed under our field to the house as the next pole towards us carried an 11Kv air break switch and overhead lines

They have been removed so the pole now just carries our 240 V supply to the house. A Scottish power linesman said they may consider allowing the use of the power poles but there must be a 30 inch separation below the 240 V cables and the fibre.

From your reply, it sounds as if a duct will have to be used. I am happy to contribute to the cost; as I understand things, when the big switch-off of the copper lines happens, we could be left with no phone and no broadband. Is that likely?

Thanks again,

Re: Power lines and phone lines

pippincp — Sat, 26 Aug 2023 10:45:24 GMT

It is only the phone service being switched off and moved to digital. Broadband via copper (SOADSL, FTTC) will continue for quite a few more years.

Re: Power lines and phone lines

Tafia — Sun, 27 Aug 2023 09:46:20 GMT

Many thanks, I wasn't aware of that.

Re: Power lines and phone lines

36ULW — Sun, 27 Aug 2023 18:20:40 GMT

Openreach are obligated to follow the same Cable route as the Copper Cable.

If that means digging a new trench to put on Duct then so be it.

As it’s classed as an, ‘Upgrade’ then there would be no cost to yourself.

Re: Power lines and phone lines

Tafia — Mon, 28 Aug 2023 09:04:12 GMT

That's interesting and good news. Neither of the two OpenReach folks who have been here have mentioned that. They were both sucking their teeth and pointing out how far away the pole mounted Connector Block was.

Interesting times.

Thanks for your response.

Re: Power lines and phone lines

iniltous — Mon, 28 Aug 2023 11:42:39 GMT

There is a post on this forum , the ‘gist’ of it , is that the posters relative has ADS/FTTC , and FTTP is available, the relative lives approximately 400m along a private driveway from the main road ( farmhouse type situation ) , the current copper pair service is a mixture of overhead ( not power poles but Openreach ones ) and underground DIG , the relatives ISP is John Lewis who are leaving the broadband business, the poster on their relatives behalf, had seen FTTP availability and decided to not renew with JL , or use the migration process to Plusnet that JL were offering their customers, and ordered FTTP ( not with BT ) , the JL service continued on an ‘out of contract’ basis .

Eventually, after a mess around with a ‘mainstream’ ISP ( again not BT ) the poster raised an FTTP order, if I recall correctly, with Zen , Zen chosen as a niche ISP with experience of ‘out of the ordinary’ provisions, and a reputation of sticking with orders that some mainstream/budget ISP simply don’t want to get involved with this ‘provide’ order ( quite appropriately) was surveyed by Openreach ‘service delivery ‘ ( not the ‘ fibre network delivery’ department ) who deemed excess construction costs of £1500 were applicable, lucky the copper pair service wasn’t ceased but they are now on a uncompetitive out of contract deal with John Lewis, and pretty much committed to remaining with them as switching to another FTTC / ADSL isn’t available due to the copper stop sell on OR ‘copper pair’ products.

So , it’s not the case that OR provide service at any cost and always use the same delivery method for FTTP as the existing copper pair services, after all if at some point in the past a ‘farmer’ ( for example ) had ‘dug in’ 1500m of armoured copper cable to serve a remote dwelling, it’s nonsense to think OR will now foot the bill for 1500m of ‘underground ‘fibre’ , should FTTP become available in the area.

There has always been excess construction costs for those that live remotely from the network, Openreach make a significant contribution towards providing service, but it has a limit .

Re: Power lines and phone lines

Tafia — Tue, 29 Aug 2023 09:20:58 GMT

I am with Zen and have been told by them that OR will fund costs up to £1000. I guess mine will be higher than that.

Thanks to all for responses.

Re: Power lines and phone lines

36ULW — Tue, 29 Aug 2023 14:03:00 GMT

That story about someone being 400m away wouldn’t apply to a normal Provide.

For a start when Connectorised Fibre is built a CBT must be built to within 120m of the Premise(s) it’s going to feed.

Under exceptional circumstances they can build a CBT either 280 or 300m away. Although this is extremely rare, even for those who live in remote areas.

This is because the maximum length of a Connectorised Fibre Cable is 350m.

Therefore said person who lived 400m away was most likely never part of the PON that bordered their property.

Openreach would’ve had to extend the Network to bring a CBT closer to that particular property, this is where the excess construction costs would’ve come in. This is known as a, Nearby NAD. It’s something Openreach came up with to increase the THP Footprint on both Retro and Rural FTTP Build.

If say for example your line is fed from a Pole 120m away but from there to your house is an underground buried cable and Openreach put a CBT on that Pole and assigned your NAD Key to it then no matter what the circumstances are around why the original Copper was buried Direct in Ground would matter. Openreach would still dig and duct the 120m section from the Pole to your house with zero charge to yourself as you’re upgrading an existing service.

Re: Power lines and phone lines

iniltous — Tue, 29 Aug 2023 16:01:20 GMT

What do you mean , this wouldn’t apply to a normal provider, that’s exactly what they ordered, the poster is quite clear , they had FTTP availability ( they already have ADS/FTTC ) , the address a single dwelling , and is 400m along a private drive , the existing cooper pair is in part DIG , OR have already stated it’s liable for excess construction charges , the poster has the choice , pay the ECC or don’t have FTTP.

Re: Power lines and phone lines

36ULW — Tue, 29 Aug 2023 18:13:34 GMT

As per what I explained in my comment.

A Normal Provide in the sense their Property is within a Built and Commissioned PON, which will mean their NAD Key is associated with a CBT within that PON.

This other post you’re referring to where the Customer is over 400m from the CBT, if that’s the case then that customer wouldn’t be part of the PON that CBT is associated with because it far exceeds the 120m a CBT has to be built near a property it feeds.

As I said, Openreach do offer a service called Nearby NAD where if it’s possible and within cost to provide service to someone outside of that PON then they will in order to increase their FTTP footprint. This is where any excess construction costs are passed onto the CP/Customer if applicable.

If my NAD Key, aka my House is associated with a CBT 120m away and my existing copper service is all direct in ground all the way back to that CBT then Openreach would dig/duct to my property to provide service with no additional cost to me as it’s an Upgrade of a Service they’re already providing me.

Re: Power lines and phone lines

Tafia — Thu, 07 Sep 2023 08:48:36 GMT

Update:

I am now told that Openreach want £3740 to bring fibre to my house with ducting. they say poles would be more expensive yet engineers have told me poles are much cheaper than ducting.

As mentioned, the Openreach broadband checker say my house is " full fibre ready". Looks as if that is not correct.

Re: Power lines and phone lines

iniltous — Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:22:17 GMT

As a rule of thumb poles are cheaper than duct , especially if they are to be sited on the land owned by the person ordering service ( no problem with permits, wayleave payment etc ) but especially with overhead power , there are restrictions which could make a pole route unviable, TBH , £3700 would be the charge for around around 6 poles that could span around 420m , and that’s pretty much in a straight line , if an unusual route needed to be taken to avoid conflict with the overhead power , then more that 6 poles could be needed and that could possibly cost more than underground.
TBH , if ( for arguments sake ) a £1500 charge would be ‘too much’ then the cost is irrelevant, if this is through your own land you could always mitigate the costs by excavating a trench yourself, OR supply the duct , preformed jointboxes ( 200m in a single duct span ) etc. and you install that , along with draw ropes and then OR complete at a much reduced cost.

TBH , if this were done by OR at no expense to you , given that a typical retail price ( maybe £30-£40 a month , 24 month term ) the only guaranteed income to OR is 24*£20 ( £20 on the generous side of what the ISP pays Openreach ) , so £480 , no business in the world would voluntarily enter that arrangement

Re: Power lines and phone lines

Tafia — Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:20:45 GMT

Thanks for this. The distance to the pole with the connection box is 125 mts according to OR and if they don't use the existing power poles they would need two poles to reach the house. From what you say that should not be anywhere near £3740.

Re: Power lines and phone lines

iniltous — Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:32:57 GMT

As said the fact that you have been quoted for duct suggests that direct overhead isn’t possible, you were quoted for duct ,not overhead so yes £3000 + for 2 poles is too much , but that’s not was quoted and we can only assume that more than 2 poles would be needed if overhead were feasible , so I’m not saying the charge is excessive, a duct in soft unmade surfaces is around £30/m , plus other things like jointbox or boxes , extra cabling etc , so £3740 would likely work out to around 100m of excavation.

If poles were possible, they would be used cheaper and quicker for you and them , unless the cost was more than a ducted solution.

I would have hoped that on the survey ( the service delivery survey after you had ordered , not the ‘FND’ survey, the options would be discussed with you at the time .

Re: Power lines and phone lines

Tafia — Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:37:11 GMT

There is an 11000 V line crossing overhead the route but a pole either side of that with ducting underneath to avoid conflict with the 11Kv line would solve that. Could that be done? OR are said to be looking at alternatives so if that is possible I would suggest it to them. There is no 11Kv on the power poles feeding the house.

Thanks again for your response. Much appreciated

Re: Power lines and phone lines

mikemod — Sat, 09 Sep 2023 11:52:48 GMT

My house is 400m on a private lane from the CBT so thought I wouldn't have a chance of getting FTTP without huge cost.

However after telling the OR survey guy I could dig my own trench up the side of the lane , they said that would be fine and they supplied the ducting and duct access chambers free of charge, placed every 150M

As was mentioned above the maximum length for the Connectorised Fibre Cable is 350m so what they did was add another CSP in the duct access chamber and joined the fibre to another section which ran to the CSP on the wall of my house where the duct came out.

So just cost me the hire of the digger for a couple of days and cold beer for my BIL who did the digging.

Re: Power lines and phone lines

iniltous — Sat, 09 Sep 2023 12:54:24 GMT

I take it that you suspect that two poles are all that’s necessary, plus underground section is also needed as an Openreach overhead span cannot cross underneath HV power , and the total distance from the existing pole with the CBT is 125m , and this is preferable ( cheaper ) than a full duct solution.

If this is close to what you think is possible , a back of the envelope calculation could be , two new poles ( assuming there is vehicle access to the location the poles would need to be provided for the PEU ,if not it’s more expensive manually provided poles that would be necessary) and an underground section of duct between the poles , so 2x poles ( £1500 ) and 50m duct in soft surface where it goes under the power , £1500 , so around £3000, a not dissimilar price , obviously from a resilient point of view the duct method is going to be better than any overhead or partial overhead solution.

I would assume the surveyor considered all options, but AFAIK , they should be open to discussing the proposal, and as another poster ( and myself ) pointed out you can always undertake some work yourself that would reduce the cost , if you supplied the entire trench from as close to the CBT pole as possible to the house wall ,for example, the costs may possibly fall to be in the low hundreds of ££ , not thousands ££