This topic

Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

KnewBee — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 10:50:20 GMT

I cannot get a broadband connection in my property as there's some sort of fault on the aluminium line somewhere between my house and the cabinet (which is around 1m away). The engineer at the time said he tried a couple of things like switching ports in the cabinet and using a test line but had no luck, so he concluded there must be an issue with the connections between the house and cabinet.

Now that they're starting to switch off all copper/aluminium lines and putting everyone onto FTTP, I'm curious about how this will actually be achieved. I'm in a rural location and I think (?) that with FTTP there is no longer any need for a cabinet and instead the fibre is connected directly from the exchange (around 1.5m away) to the property - is that correct?

If so, isn't that going to entail new roadworks etc. in order to install new lines? What's the most common method of delivering new fibre cables to remote locations?

My concern is that that the cost/benefit analysis won't stack up for the few properties in my area and so we'll still be left with no service and still have to rely on 4G, which itself can only achieve 10mbps and which is fast feeling obsolete.

I'm just looking for any information on the rollout process so I can help manage expectations, so any insight would be appreciated!

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

Keith_Beddoe — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 10:55:17 GMT

@KnewBee

Despite what you read in the press, copper is staying, and will be with us for a very long time, so if you do not have the option of FTTP, you are stuck on an ADSL line connected to the local exchange.

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

iniltous — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 11:23:09 GMT

As been mentioned hundreds of times, the is no imminent copper pair switch off , as individuals get access to FTTP , there can be encouragement to move onto the FTTP network , but there is no wholesale copper pair switch off , the only thing being turned off is the PSTN telephone network, some people will be on copper pairs for many more years , if copper pairs are the only network they have access to .

If your property hasn’t some restriction to having Openreach network access ( like a builder that locked Openreach out of the development , or you live on someone else’s land and they refuse or place financial or logistical barriers towards Openreach providing or repairing network ) then having a faulty cable between your address and the copper cabinet is irrelevant , that is not a reason to refuse service.

Any one ordering a service , or with a pre-existing service, if a service cable is faulty it’s repaired, if it’s irreparable it’s replaced, there is no such thing as Openreach shrugging their metaphorical shoulders and saying ‘sorry , we have arbitrarily decided, no service for you’ ,

BT have a Universal service obligation for telephony and later for ‘ broadband’ that guarantees a certain level of service, but it also comes with a limit , if someone ( for example) chooses to live in a converted barn , on a mountainside , miles away from civilisation, they cannot expect to get service without a contribution towards the costs , should the total costs exceed the USO allowance, a USO for broadband solution can also include mobile, so if landline based broadband is ( for example ) 6Mb , that’s not USO compliant, but if 10Mb mobile is available, then the USO is satisfied.

Its not clear to me what your point is , that Openreach have not provided you with broadband , or that Openreach broadband is not as fast as you require and therefore you chose to use mobile.

If your service is delivered by telegraph poles , when FTTP becomes available, as it eventually will , the chances are the same poles will deliver FTTP

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

KnewBee — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 11:11:49 GMT

Thanks for the replies

The engineer said that they can't fix whatever the fault is, and I was told the USO doesn't apply as as the 'minimum decent speed' was 10mbps, which the 4G sites say they can deliver (although tbh it often falls below that down to 5-8mbps).

They're apparently upgrading the local exchange and it's that part I'm interested in and would like to find out more about the process and what it is they're actually upgrading

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

Keith_Beddoe — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 11:14:02 GMT

@KnewBee

Only Openreach would know that, but do not reveal commercially sensitive plans.

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

chrisjp — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 11:56:19 GMT

Yes, fibre to the premises will indeed require a lot of new fibre optic cables to be installed. This is already going on, judging by the number of roadworks I encounter with Openreach or their contractors. As you say, for outlying rural areas this isn't going to be economic so I suspect that it will be a VERY long time before houses in such areas get FTTP - if they get it at all. Such houses either have, or will get, fibre to the cabinet, though, so will remain reliant on copper cables from the cabinet to the house for broadband.
Your post says that your copper (or aluminium?) connection isn't working at all, so I assume that you have never had an analogue phone connection either?
One way to force BT/Openreach to repair your connection (since it appears they are unwilling at present to do this) would be to apply for a phone/broadband package. The phone will now be provided by digital voice, but that also requires a broadband connection, and both will have to be supplied via a copper cable from cabinet to your house, so they'll have to install a working one, or repair the existing one.

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

KnewBee — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 12:12:49 GMT

To clarify, when I say "not working" I mean that it can't achieve the minimum speeds they advertised and it was constantly dropping out altogether, which then required a router restart. The engineer basically said it was completely unreliable and that I should cancel the installation, which I did.

You're correct in saying I've never had an analogue phone line either for the same reason.

I've been relying on 4G ever since but as I say that's starting to struggle as the strains we place on it get larger all the time. I'd enquired about one of the voucher schemes but was told I was ineligible as the local exchange is due to be upgraded within 12 months, and after reading a little about the switch-off I was hoping that, this time, I might actually be included in the new works as they'll have to connect everyone eventually, right? However, once I started thinking about the practicalities of it all I thought that, as before, they'll leave me out as being uneconomical and I'll be left having to seek alternate solutions but by that time the voucher schemes may have ended.

I feel like I'm wasting time, waiting for the upgrade works to be finished in 12 months' time only to find out at that point I'm not included, and then potentially missing out out on the voucher schemes.

I appreciate that no-one has any in-depth plans or insight, but I was curious as to what other people's experiences with the upgrades are and what is usually in / out of scope when they're in the local areas.

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

Anonymous — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 12:19:04 GMT

How long ago was it you attempted to get a connection? Have you enquired since as an FTTC cabinet may have been installed in the meantime.

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

KnewBee — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 12:20:45 GMT

It's been around 7 years, but the cabinet was already FTTC then.

As the issue is between the cabinet and the premises, I was told I'd need to wait to until FTTP was available before anything could change

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

Keith_Beddoe — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 12:23:36 GMT

So its an FTTC connection you are talking about, not an ADSL one?

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

KnewBee — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 12:27:56 GMT

I don't currently have any connection; I'm asking about the mechanics of how the switchover from FTTC to FTTP happens and what to expect i.e. is there any chance they'll do 100% of properties in the area or will they continue to leave the difficult properties out of any upgrade plans.

I fear they'll leave the difficult ones out, which means I'll be in the same position as I am today i.e. unable to have a decent FTTC line

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

Keith_Beddoe — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 12:29:54 GMT

If you have an FTTC cabinet nearby, then its very unlikely you will get FTTP.

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

KnewBee — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 12:32:37 GMT

I thought the whole point of the upgrades was to move everyone to FTTP?

The cabinet has been FTTC since 2010 I believe so what are they upgrading now?

Apologies if I've missed the obvious but I thought they were looking to discontinue FTTC and switch everyone onto FTTP

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

iniltous — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:25:00 GMT

In time , 99% or more will have FTTP , there may well be some exceptions where it’s not possible even with Government assistance, but for those 4/5G or even satellite broadband may be the only option, but assuming you are not one of these exceptions, a few misconceptions, FTTP doesn’t come from a cabinet, it’s almost certainly not from your local exchange ( so I’ve no idea what you think an exchange upgrade entails ) however OR still refer to exchange areas when advising of their rollout plans , as that’s a convenient way to indicate the geographic area that’s being upgraded.

If you have access to FTTC and you recon the cabinet in question is around 1 mile away , should result in a 15-20Mb speed , your address will have an estimate, if it’s lower that this , then perhaps you are misinformed about how far that cabinet is ( it’s never an as the crow flies distance ) and whatever you were quoted , if it is not good enough, that’s up to you ,

FTTP is delivered from a headend exchange, that can be upto 40Km away ( obviously some will live within the headend exchange area ) , the headend serves multiple aggregation nodes , they serve splitter nodes , that serve CBT’s that are ( relatively speaking ) in the footpath outside peoples homes , if and when this infrastructure is provided can only be speculated about, obviously ‘fibre’ for your FTTC cab means there is an optical path to a headend , hard to reach areas may need local or national funding arrangements as they are unlikely to be commercially viable, but there are hundreds of areas like that , already covered by FTTP , and new ones are allocated funding all the time .

You are asking a question that’s impossible to answer , when will your area get FTTP , something to consider, most of the last significant BDUK funds allocated by Government for areas that will not be covered by commercial schemes were not ‘won’ by Openreach and therefore BT could not offer service once the subsidised network is in , City Fibre were the network the Government allocated these funds to , BT have no influence on when and where Openreach chose to provide FTTP , but Openreach are not the only network builder

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

KnewBee — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:29:19 GMT

Thanks - very informative.

When your reference CBTs, is this usually a new installation or an upgrade of the "boxes" already installed on the streets?

There's currently a "box" / cabinet much closer to my house but I can't be connected to that as I'm already connected to the one a mile away - is it likely that may change with the new infrastructure being installed?

Also, is there any maps available to show the locations of the nodes? (I'm guessing not but wanted to check anyway)

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

Anonymous — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:37:49 GMT

Apologies, I missed "cabinet" from your fist post.

As @iniltous has said, if the distance is still the same then even if you can get a connection, it may not be any better that what you currently get from 4G. But it's also possible that another cab has been added that's closer. It would still be worth putting your address in here & see what it says now. Feel free to post an image of the results but remove any personal details first.

As for the original attempt at installation, you may simply have had someone who didn't want to do the work involved & found it easier to fob you off. I would expect there to be a reasonable amount of redundancy built in so you could be switched to another pair if yours was unrepairable.

But again as been said previously, the information you seek regarding when/if you'll get FTTP simply isn't available.

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

iniltous — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:53:30 GMT

Connectorised Block Terminals ( CBT ) are fibre distribution points and are ( when provided ) generally at the same location as your copper pair DP ( distribution point ) so at a pole top in overhead areas , in a jointbox in the footpath in underground areas , some underground areas where cables are not ducted but DIG ( direct in ground ) new joint boxes , ducts etc . may be needed before FTTP can be provided , in overhead areas extra poles may be needed , from a consumer point of view, it doesn’t matter , but it is true to say that excessive construction costs ( so areas that need considerable construction of new infrastructure, duct , poles , boxes ) cost more than areas where there is existing usable infrastructure, in densely populated areas , therefore that area will be harder to justify providing FTTP , basically if a business could spend a million £ and get 2500 customers covered , or spend the same money for 40 customers, where would you allocated your resources ?

OR periodically publish the areas they intend to cover , short of that , why would they let Joe Public and the competition know of their strategic plans etc , you don’t need to know where aggregation nodes or splitter nodes are , why would they provide that information to you .

As stated , I wouldn’t get to invested , you will undoubtedly get FTTP eventually, it’s pointless asking ISP’s unless they are also the network builder , Openreach are not the only network .

OR can offer FTTPod for those who cannot wait and are prepared to pay , they offer CFP ( community funded projects ) where a community willing to collectively club together to pay the difference between what OR can spend and the actual construction costs ( and if Government vouchers are available in that area , the CFP is actually funded by the Government ) otherwise patience is key .

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

KnewBee — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:47:40 GMT

Thanks again

My old number isn't recognised on that site unfortunately, and I don't have the other details.

I appreciate no one can say exactly about the FTTP, and I am more curious about the generic process as to what I could potentially expect by the time they've finished working in the area. For example, if the switchover / stop sell processes involve installing brand new infrastructure then I might be included. However, if it's mostly replacing existing connections then I fear I'll be left much as I am today.

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

KnewBee — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:52:54 GMT

You say "generally at the same place as the current copper pair" - would there be any opportunity to change that do you think?

There is another cabinet closer to my house than my existing connection and (obviously) they couldn't switch to that last time but with the new works due to be undertaken in the next 12 months do you think that will provide an opportunity to "switch cabinets"?

Re: Copper/Aluminium Switch Off

iniltous — Fri, 15 Mar 2024 14:11:33 GMT

FTTP has nothing to do with copper cabinets and their associated FTTC service , Openreach are not going to ‘waste’ money rearranging copper pair customers from one copper cabinet to another ( closer ) copper cabinet ,even if it’s technically possible, just to to give a marginal increase in FTTC speeds for a few customers for a short time , it’s a nonsensical proposition really .

If you have a copper DP in a jointbox outside your home from a cabinet 1 mile away , and that is served from your local exchange, when you get FTTP , the CBT will almost certainly be in the same jointbox, but that’s probably going to be about the total of any confluence of the two networks, everything else will separate , the fibre from a headend exchange potentially many miles away , the aggregation node closer , but not necessarily that close , the splitter closer than the aggregation node , the fibre cables from the Agg Node to the splitter may run in some existing ducting , or in newly provided ducts , it may be overhead on existing poles or newly provided poles , but the location of the copper cabinet is totally irrelevant to that FTTP network .