This topic

What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

Pete65 — Sat, 24 Aug 2024 17:36:06 GMT

My query is a long story but please bear with me as it has relevance to the title query.

I live in a bungalow that had external wall insulation fitted about 2 years ago.
The fitters went to great lengths to remind me that this insulation can't have anything pinned to it unless it has some support behind that is itself pinned to the brick wall, and you can't have wiring attached as the standard cable clips will just pull straight out.
Not a problem at the time and all is good as all wiring existed on brick and was covered or was re-routed to below the damp proof level which doesn't have the insulation.

Fast forward to last 2 months and BT raised an order (without letting me know I might add!) for Digital Voice, which because we have full fibre in our street also means I would be upgraded to full fibre.
We are currently on FTTC Fibre 2 getting about 53Mbps and the upgrade would be to Fibre 150 at same cost.
As there's only me and my wfe, I really have no thirst or need for higher speeds but appreciate "Fibre is the future" so equally have no problem in principal with a free upgrade.

I found out about the order as I was checking my account for options.
I also noticed that BT have messed up my renewal date. I won't go into it here as it involves a deal with BT made previously but I should be out of contract and BT have me in contract.

Anyway the order had gotten to engineer visit planned stage and needed me to offer a date for engineer visit.
At this request I thought, hmm, can't have new fibre pinned to wall so how are BT going to bring in the Fibre.
I contacted BT and it seems nobody knows.
So I requested that the order be cancelled until I can be sure how the "upgrade" will be attached to my property as I don't want the rather expensive external insulation integrity to be lost (unless BT would like to indefinitely pay my energy bills of course!)

Now I don't think for one minute I'm the only person in the UK who has a BT line AND external insulation so can anyone tell me how an installation is done when a property has this type of external wall?
And if admin want to pick up about my contract date being messed up and why I had to find out about this DVorder by accident, please let me know.

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

36ULW — Sat, 24 Aug 2024 21:27:02 GMT

That’s right, they can’t use ordinary cleats to pin a cable to External Wall Insulation.

Openreach use what kind of looks like a plastic bolt that goes into the insulation. They’ll put this evenly spaced apart and then the Fibre Cable is attached to them using Cable Ties.

I won’t lie, it’ll look like chit, no matter how neat they try to make it look.

Also they obviously need to get cable into the house, that means drilling through the Insulation.

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

Pete65 — Sun, 25 Aug 2024 19:27:57 GMT

Hi 36ULW
Thanks for reply and good to know a solution exists.
Would you happen to know what these fixings are called as when I search plastic bolts for insulation I only get the ones used to attache the insulation to brick.

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

36ULW — Sun, 25 Aug 2024 20:58:53 GMT

Plastic Bolts probably wasn’t the best description.

Can’t quite remember the exact Description Openreach gave them but this is them.

I only ever used them a couple of times. If I remember right we had to drill using wither a 6 or 8mm Masonry Drill Bit. Then these pushed in and a cable tie basically goes through the bit at the top and you fasten the cable using that.

I’m sure you can now see what I mean when I say it’ll look like chit no matter how neat the do it because you can line them up and space them as evenly as possible when the cable still kinks and won’t sit perfectly straight.

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

Pete65 — Fri, 06 Sep 2024 20:58:24 GMT

Thanks for clarification.
Gone down a rabbit hole with these and it seems an alternate way is to use "Pin Plugs" as these allow for cable clips and look more like what you'd expect for an external cable run.
I imagine they might be more expensive as its a plug and clip, or take longer to use, so Openreach chose masonry mounts instead.
As you suggest, just thinking about how the cable attaches, it seems inevitable that it will look less tidy than cable clips with pin plugs.

I guess inevitably I won't have a choice, but for now, I think I'm going to stick where I am as I can't see my missus wanting the new walls layered with droopy cable.

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

36ULW — Sat, 07 Sep 2024 08:10:53 GMT

Pin Plugs. Got a bag full of them in my garage.

Great for when you need to cleat a cable onto the bricks or when the mortar is as hard as steel.

Absolutely useless on external wall insulation as they’ll pull straight out.

Trust me, we tried it a few times on homes with external wall insulation and it just wouldn’t work.

If cable tieing to a drainpipe not an option?

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

Pete65 — Sat, 07 Sep 2024 12:52:59 GMT

Ahh hadn't thought of that.
Of course, now you say it, insulation won't have the pressure to hold a plug.
I guess cable tie mounts with the wings to stop pull out might be only option then as drainpipe isn't possible.

Can you additionally tell me if all the fibre cable used is black, or is white an option?

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

36ULW — Sat, 07 Sep 2024 15:05:52 GMT

The new Inside Out Cable only comes in Black.

The original EZ Bend Cable we first used when it was all Blown Fibre Tubing came in Black, White and Brown.

I know they still have the White Available as they use it on MDU Builds, both New and Brown Field Sites.

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

Kindsay — Mon, 07 Oct 2024 16:46:55 GMT

We are in same position. Have cancelled installation date but will have to upgrade eventually. Our insulation provider made it very clear that should the insulation be breached i.e. holes drlled through it, our guarantee could be invalidated. I called BT but received no solution, just agreed to postpone installation date. Seems like they don't know how to get round this or don't care.

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

36ULW — Mon, 07 Oct 2024 17:01:14 GMT

Why would the Company that installs the External Wall Insulation not plan ahead themselves?

Surely they must realise that other Utilities/Services like Gas, Water, Electric and Telecoms would need Upgrading/Maintenance in the future and that would require an access point of some kind.

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

iniltous — Mon, 07 Oct 2024 17:55:20 GMT

You state you will have to upgrade sometime, that’s true , but not for many years , your hybrid copper fibre connection ( fibre to the cabinet ) will be maintained, so if the wall insulation can’t be disturbed then don’t voluntarily upgrade to FTTP ( no compulsion to do so ) …

if at some point you have to take FTTP , and it’s your decision that your insulation cannot be interfered with Openreach will bid you farewell as it would be your choice , what won’t happen is the overhead feed changed to an underground one because you and the insulation provider says so ….perhaps an Alt Net may turn up , and ignore the option to use the existing pole ( or even provide their own poles ) and excavate underground to your property, of course they may need to attach a block to the wall covered with insulation , possibly also breaking and ‘warranty’ the insulation company offered .

As stated , there are fixings , it possible the cable could be attached to guttering down pipe, but if that’s unacceptable you effectively exclude yourself from OR FTTP network.

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

Pete65 — Mon, 07 Oct 2024 18:56:55 GMT

Hi iniltous
That's interesting regarding guttering / downpipe.
Are you saying that Openreach will use a downpipe and /or guttering?
We use gutter hooks already for some outside fairy lights.
If Openreach will use gutter hooks, then that opens possibilities for me as I could get a cable run to the part of the house that doesn't have external insulation using gutter.

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

iniltous — Mon, 07 Oct 2024 19:38:48 GMT

@36ULW as an ex Openreach engineer in this field had already stated that cable ties fixing the cable to a down pipe is an acceptable way to fix a cable , that may get a new optical cable from 1st floor height to ground floor level but at some point an ingress hole would be required, to get the cable inside, ( they won’t put a hole through a window or door frame as was done many years ago ) , so unless a section of insulation is missing then wouldn’t the problem still exist , no holes to be made in the externally through the insulation.

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

Pete65 — Mon, 07 Oct 2024 19:55:23 GMT

"..so unless a section of insulation is missing then wouldn’t the problem still exist.."

My bungalow is a mixed build.
The front part where the fibre would attach is "single skin" and therefore we had the external insulation.
The back part was extended about 25 years ago and is more traditional being double skin and in wall insulation.
If I can get the fibre to the rear via gutterhooks then no issues as puncturing the external insulation won't be necessary.
But it sounds like only a downpipe is an option 😞

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

WSH — Mon, 07 Oct 2024 20:28:48 GMT

@iniltous Just out of curiosity, why do they regard going through a doorframe as unacceptable? I'd be interested to know for my own future reference, is there actually a problem with it or is it just aesthetics?

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

chrisjp — Mon, 07 Oct 2024 22:20:02 GMT

"they won’t put a hole through a window or door frame as was done many years ago"

Do you know why Openreach won't put a hole through a window frame, even if it's wood? My current copper cable enters my house this way and I'd assumed that, when I was (eventually) offered FTTP, the optical cable could enter this way also.
I also have TV and satellite aerial cables entering my house this way and these cables are at least as big as the optical cable. The outer leaf of my house is extremely hard brick and is very difficult to drill holes into, so using the wooden window frame would save the Openreach operative a whole lot of trouble.
If you drill the hole yourself will Openreach use it?

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

iniltous — Tue, 08 Oct 2024 09:01:40 GMT

I would imagine the policy of not putting holes through window and door frames is because it creates problems should the windows or doors be replaced at some point in the future , plus potentially OR would be liable should ( for example ) a wooden window frame need replacing due to ‘rot’ and the householder insists that was because a hole was made in it and not adequately sealed against water ingress , but that’s my assumption, I’ve no direct knowledge on this , as far as what if the customer provided the hole themselves, the problem I would think is after a few years or change of ownership it would be assumed that it was OR that made the hole if it has an OR cable in it .

If upgrading to FTTP and the copper cable enters in a fashion that isn’t allowed today , would the tech look to re-use the same hole after removing the copper cable rather than making a new one ? , I guess it’s dependent on that individual technician on the day .

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

WSH — Tue, 08 Oct 2024 09:24:54 GMT

Thanks for that. I was more interested in routing my own network cables through internal doorframes. Easier and no chance of hitting a pipe/cable. I was just curious if you knew of a specific problem with rules & regs if going through a doorframe.

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

36ULW — Sun, 13 Oct 2024 08:33:28 GMT

When I was a CST we could put cables through wooden door, window frames.

Obviously you had to use to appropriate wooden drill bit, unfortunately the one Openreach provided us was absolute dog siht. It would blunt after 2 uses and took forever to drill with. You had to keep stopping and letting it cool down to stop the frame from getting to hot.

It was a complete no no though for UPV Door and Window Frames.

Of course rules may have changed in the past couple of years.

Re: What happens if you have external wall insulation and want to go on fibre....?

grahamm1 — Sun, 13 Oct 2024 13:54:57 GMT

When I had fibre installed the Openreach guy said he would not drill a hole in a door or window frame. However, if I drilled the hole or there was one already there and I instructed him to use an existing hole, then that was ok. So I drilled the holes while he had a cuppa.

He did warn me of the possibility of damaging the cable if I wanted to change the door and window frames, but I told him I was willing to take the risk.

I drilled the holes in the brickwork, too, as I didn’t want the bricks blown and have a method of drilling right through house walls without blowing brickwork.

I doubt all Openreach engineers are so accommodating.