This topic

KCI2 Assure

Iceman1 — Thu, 19 Dec 2024 13:30:21 GMT

FTTP is finally available for my house. But on the wholesale checker it says KCI2 Assure under FTTP.

Looking on different topics I believe this only happens when an install is ongoing. Is this correct?

But I have not signed up to any providor yet.

Re: KCI2 Assure

iniltous — Thu, 19 Dec 2024 16:55:05 GMT

KCI2 assure is a two stage install ( it’s not what you think ) basically at the network survey stage before the FTTP network was built , an issue with your address ( although the same issue may affect many others ) was identified that requires the installation to be done in two stages , this only happens if an order is raised , if no order comes in no work is done ( apart from the work already done to get FTTP into the area , that work was what enabled orders to be raised via ISP’s in the first place )

An example could be , someone’s existing copper pair service is underground but not ducted, the fibre network is available but 20m away ….the first stage is to get a duct from the FTTP location 20m away to the house wall , requiring excavation in the footpath and an agreed route through the garden , once this is agreed and the first stage work is done , there is the means to get a new optical cable to the house wall from the location of the FTTP equipment , the second stage ( obviously dependent on success of the first stage ) completes the installation ( the work to fit the FTTP equipment in the home ) ….this isn’t the only reason KCI2 is stated , but gives an idea why some installations can’t be done in one visit , even someone with an overhead service ( so an existing copper cable from a telegraph pole ) , could be KCI2 , if installation of a new overhead optical cable would present issues .

The checker you used to establish your address is KCI2 also gives an indication of what the issue is , it looks like this ( although this is not a KCI2 , but a straightforward installation address )

Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG Feed with no anticipated issues.

Re: KCI2 Assure

Iceman1 — Thu, 19 Dec 2024 18:59:23 GMT

Thank you for your detailed reply.

These is the status when using the BT checker. I do have underground cabling but I was told by open reach who were working on my round a few weeks ago it is in a duct.

Re: KCI2 Assure

jac_95 — Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:53:45 GMT

@Iceman1

The note states "Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG Pre built to curtilage Soft"

This usually means they have ducted and put a Toby box near your property boundary. The curtilage Soft then means a dig maybe required to install duct from that Toby box to the property outside wall but as it's soft I'm assuming it maybe garden like grass or soft material that can be dug up and then put back down and made to original state.

This will be why it's also a "2" stage install (aka KCI2) rather than a 1 stage install

Re: KCI2 Assure

Iceman1 — Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:09:05 GMT

Thanks for the reply.

There is a box on the pavement which is about 30m away. The first 25m of this is tarmac and the last 5m to my house is grass.

So I assume the last bit is the soft area it's referring to.

Re: KCI2 Assure

iniltous — Thu, 19 Dec 2024 21:58:27 GMT

If your property had a duct then there wouldn’t be the need for a new toby box in the footpath opposite your property….., no duct was the default situation for property built in the 1960’s till the early 1990’s.

What does the 30m refer to ? , is your front garden 30m in length and 25m of that is tarmac ? or have you have seen a toby box 30 meters away , and from there it’s 25m in the public footpath and 5m across your garden ( your garden being around 5m long ) ? , if the second option, are you sure there isn’t there a closer Toby box than the one you have seen ? , if there isn’t , then it’s not really built to your curtilage ( the boundary between your property and the public footpath ) , the correct survey note should be ‘partial DIG’ .

As stated , built to the curtilage soft should mean that at the boundary of the public footpath and your garden opposite your house there should be a new Toby box and from there to your house wall it’s should be mainly soft surface, ( that’s to the proposed location where the new excavation would meet the house wall ) it’s not necessarily where the existing copper line enters , if the route to the most convenient point on the house wall had mainly to cross hard surfaces like concrete, tarmac, brick pavers etc , then the correct survey note is build to the curtilage hard .

When the civils teams install toby boxes they try to avoid being opposite driveways and hard landscaping and opposite lawn ( soft ) surfaces , but obviously if someone had nothing but hard surfaces outside their property then it’s impossible to avoid them , footpaths can also be pretty congested places with other buried services , so the ‘best’ location for the Toby box may not be available as other buried services are blocking that location.

This method of service of providing a toby boxes outside each property , or one outside a pair of semi’s is the same as what the cable industry did 30 years ago .

TBH, from your point of view , provided you agree to the excavation route , then it’s not really of any consequence to you if it’s soft or hard surfaces , a survey network note ( SNN ) is a guide for Openreach , this would only affect you if the excavation required was so great that the excess costs involved would require you to make a contribution towards them .

So in your case , it’s two stage installation, and the first stage consists of a visit to explain what’s required and the proposed route and if you are happy to proceed ( there will be situations where a scar down a newly landscaped garden/driveway means the householder changes their mind after being told what’s necessary ) but assuming you consent to what’s needed , an excavation and duct are installed from the nearest toby box to your house wall ….the first stage techs may also install the optical cable through the duct to the house wall once they have the duct installed , or may leave the duct roped so the cable can easily be installed by the second stage engineer …either way , once the first stage is ‘booked off ‘ , the second stage appointment can be arranged ( this is the contractual date ) and the external cable is provided and spliced at a newly provided CSP block on the external wall to an internal optical cable which is ran to the location of the ONT inside the house , and the service authenticated, router connected etc .

Underground ducting direct to property?

Iceman1 — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 11:39:57 GMT

My existing phone line comes to my house via underground ducting.

My question is, does and should the ducting run right up to my house wall where the cable comes out?

I ask as when I got a driveway done a few years ago, the cable 'popped' out from the ground about 2m away from the box that is on my wall. There was definitely no ducting for this last 2m.

This open reach photo I've found also suggests the ducting is not straight to properties, is this correct?

If that is the case, I'm just concerned on how they will install a new fibre cable to my house if the duct is directly all the way to my house.

Re: Underground ducting direct to property?

iniltous — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 12:02:32 GMT

The image you have posted is for a road crossing , before ducts are connected to and from it , so the duct type , depth of cover etc are irrelevant and it’s not helpful in regards to the duct to your house wall …

however the duct to your house should be all the way to the house wall not 2m short , about this distance the duct should join with a duct 90 degree bend that allows the duct to emerge at the house wall , however although the duct is Openreach property ( or BT before Openreach ) , the developer/builder of the house does the groundwork supposedly to BT/OR specifications , unfortunately they don’t always to the correct thing , so if your duct stops short , it’s possible the developer had no 90’ bends , didn’t reinstate the ground until a cable was inside the duct , then backfilled, and said it was done correctly ( what the eye can’t see etc ) ……so getting a new cable into that duct and up-to the house wall may be problematic, and should you order FTTP it’s entirely possible you will have to agree to excavation to repair or replace this defect

If this is under a newly laid drive ( or even an old driveway you don’t want interfering with ) and you don’t consent to excavation, the order is cancelled , it’s better to be aware of this before an order is made , what is never considered is a request from the home owner for the entire driveway to be replaced to avoid a ‘scar’ in the surface ….some surfaces , like block pavers aren’t really a problem as they can be taken up and put back down with no ‘witness marks’ , but concrete or resin bonded surfaces will have a scar where the work took place , so if you don’t want that it’s probably wasting everyone’s time ordering .

Re: Underground ducting direct to property?

Iceman1 — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 11:59:30 GMT

Thanks for the reply. And yes it is block paving so hopefully not too painful removing it.

Also I'm hoping they can access most of the duct and therefore only dig a small amount find it.

Re: Underground ducting direct to property?

iniltous — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 12:07:28 GMT

Generally the push a rod down the duct from a joint box until it hits the stoppage , they know the length of the duct that went in , make an educated guess at the path/route the duct takes underground, so know where roughly the stoppage is , then excavate around that area to expose the stoppage, in your case a spilt duct bend ( so the copper cable doesn’t need cutting ) joins the now exposed duct end and completes the duct to the house wall , this is probably what should have been done years ago at the time of construction.

Re: Underground ducting direct to property?

Iceman1 — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 12:16:35 GMT

Thanks. As in my case there doesn't appear to be a duct for the final 2m so they will have to dig from the point the duct is blocked to my house? So 2m in total?

Re: Underground ducting direct to property?

iniltous — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 12:52:01 GMT

Probably yes , but there is a chance that the duct is blocked ( rather than missing ) , at other places along its route , but no point worrying about that as it’s not particularly likely, you know a section is missing .

TBH , if your address is single stage installation process , the person who turns up will be sent assuming that the duct is fine end to end , you may want to point out you observed the duct falling short when the driveway was installed, it’s going to be a a waste of time mentioning it to any order taker before the visit , mention it to the tech that turns up to do the install….I don’t think there is a way for you to get a single stage install changed to KCI2 ( two stage ) in advance of the installation which will likely fail , and the actions to remedy the situation put in place after the failure , where a KCI2 the remedy is in place before a committed appointment date is given , the fact that you know there is going to be an issue should lessen any disappointment if the installation fails ……it’s highly unlikely but not impossible that the installation will actually work .

Re: Underground ducting direct to property?

Iceman1 — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 12:54:37 GMT

My property is already showing as KCI2.

Re: Underground ducting direct to property?

36ULW — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 13:03:20 GMT

That picture is just to highlight to Builders/Developers what kind of Duct should be used on Road Crossings and how deep it should be as a minimum.

On Road Crossings they should only use a Duct54 but then when it goes onto peoples homes they’ll use a Duct56 and connect the two using a Port Reducer.

Re: Underground ducting direct to property?

iniltous — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 13:10:39 GMT

Even better then , something must have alerted the survey engineer that your address potentially had a problem , the survey ethos is better to be cautious , even if it turns out there was never an issue .

An example could be …..say two identical houses ( fairly recently built , within the last 30-35 years ) both should have evidence of the BT/OR duct at the external house wall ( grey plastic duct cover , capping , small grey block ) one house has had a porch built on the front and this grey plastic can no longer be seen from the footpath , it’s basically now inside the porch , that address is marked at survey as KCI2 because of this , it doesn’t mean it’s definitely got issues , but it’s worth being cautious…whereas the property with the grey plastic still visible isn’t definitely OK , but there is no reason to assume that the duct isn’t serviceable , and its marked as single stage installation, same house type , same age , different survey results….if the grey plastic is missing or covered up on your address it may be KCI2 for that reason , but it works to your advantage anyway in that someone should visit in advance and after discussion with you , put the remedy in place before you get a ‘proper’ contractual appointment for the install .

Re: KCI2 Assure

36ULW — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 13:11:02 GMT

Openreach stopped using Toby Boxes a couple of years ago.

Instead all they do now on DIG Sites is built to the nearest Joint Box and as and when an EU Orders FTTP they’ll Dig and Duct from the CBT location to that EU’s house.

Re: Underground ducting direct to property?

iniltous — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 13:20:08 GMT

Just realised you have another thread going ( not a great idea to have two threads basically for the same thing , just produces duplication ) on that you state your SNN is ‘built to the curtilage hard ‘ so chances are you don’t have a duct in the accepted sense , some property from the 60’s, 70’s and 1980’s use Duct 100 , it’s barely larger in diameter than the copper cable inside it ,and is considered the same as no duct at all , there is no way to get a new optical cable alongside the existing copper cable , and often D100 doesn’t actually reach end to end ( so 2 metres short of the house in your case ) …..so it’s not just a missing duct bend , your house has already been provided with the solution to this ‘DIG’ direct in ground problem by fitting a toby box at the curtilage and as stated in your other thread , an excavation from the Toby box to your house wall is needed

Re: Underground ducting direct to property?

Iceman1 — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 13:32:13 GMT

The openreach checker shows it is soft.

Also forgive for the silly question but what is a Toby box.

The nearest 'box' to my house is one of these probably about 50m away.

A few weeks ago Openreach installed cabling to this point. When I asked them, they said this serves all the houses in the estate and they are fed by ducting.

Re: Underground ducting direct to property?

iniltous — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 14:01:12 GMT

That’s a joint box lid not a toby box , the duct from here to the toby box should be new ( so scars in the footpath ) search for a Toby box image but they are normally a black plastic square about 4” , that the visible part on top of the new duct placed outside each address , occasionally a duct marker rather than a Toby box is used, this is a 2inch round duct cover ( has OR printed on it ) ….there is always the possibility that the survey network note is plain wrong , or the area many have been designed to have toby boxes , but to save money initially on the build stage , they and the associated duct in the footpath were never provided, in which case a duct is provided from a jointbox ( like the one shown ) directly to the house wall when an order is received ( the correct SNN for that is ‘partial DIG’ ) , and that will confuse the installation people ( SD division, Service Delivery ) as they will expect less excavation than will be needed and they also will be scratching their heads wondering where the toby boxes are , either that , or they are there , you just haven’t noticed them …when was the property built approximately ?

Re: Underground ducting direct to property?

Iceman1 — Sun, 22 Dec 2024 14:12:55 GMT

Housing estate was built in 1974 and there definitely is not any Toby boxes for my house or any other houses on the estate.

When I spoke to the Openreach engineer, he said every house is served from the joint box via ducting.