This topic

Openreach Full Fibre Installation

Joshields17 — Fri, 21 Jul 2023 20:06:10 GMT

Do openreach always offer free installation for full fibre broadband if it is available in the location of the property?

The reason I ask is I have moved into a new build which has a copper cable already installed (and apparently it can't be replaced directly). Openreach can install a new full fibre cable in but it will cost £6200 (of which BT will pay £3400) leaving us to pay £2800.

This seems unreasonably high and Openreach on their website seem to suggest they do offer a free installation?

We also were initially told by an openreach engineer that they could do an overhead connection. But according to BT subsequently another engineer came and this isn't an option (no specific reason was given)

Frustratingly hard to get in contact with openreach engineers. You cannot call openreach and just have to use BT as a middle man. Several times I have arranged to work from home (tethering before you ask) in order to meet an engineer, but they did not come.

I'll stop short of a full rant, but we have moved into our house 5 months ago and this still isn't resolved.

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation

iniltous — Fri, 21 Jul 2023 20:53:57 GMT

What type of full fibre are you referring to ?, a property either has access to native FTTP or doesn’t , often people are mistaken when they see that FTTPod is available, this is a bespoke FTTP installation and is much more expensive as the fibre network is built ( where none currently exists ) from the aggregation node to the customer property .

Post the results from this checker for your phone number ( if you are currently a BT customer with a non DV phone service) or use your address if not a BT customer

https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL

There are occasionally situations where native FTTP is available, but an individual property is a long way from the FTTP network that the property is designed to ,an example could be a village where the majority of the properties are on the main road and the FTTP equipment is on a pole on the Main Street , most properties can get FTTP at a standard installation fee , but there is a detached property accessed from a 1/4 mile individual, private driveway, the existing copper cable was buried direct in the ground ( not ducted ) , in a case like this , although FTTP is shown as available, there is considerable expense to provide that remote property with FTTP , ( it would need 7-8 poles , or a trench excavating and ducting / joint boxes installed ) in those cases the property owner will be expected to contribute to the extensive civils costs of the install .

As far as new build , new build developments of 2 or more property can get FTTP and it’s been this way for a few years , if your new build has a copper pair service then it’s either not that new ( more than 3 years old ) or it’s a single property, or the developer never contacted Openreach during the pre build stage.

Finally , you don’t have to use BT , Openreach and BT are not interchangeable, if you think you would have a better chance of getting FTTP , use someone other than BT , BT get no preferential treatment from OR , all providers have equal access to OR products.

Hopefully you are not under the misapprehension that to convert to FTTP all that is needed is to change a copper cable for an optical one , there is much more to it than that.

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation

Joshields17 — Sat, 22 Jul 2023 09:36:58 GMT

This is the response from the address checker

Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG Feed Not Evaluated.

FTTP is available and a new ONT may be ordered.

As a fibre priority exchange, FTTP has priority over other products if available at the address

WLR is currently available at the exchange

SOADSL is not restricted at the exchange

For all ADSL and WBC Fibre to the Cabinet (VDSL or G.fast) services, the stable line rate will be determined during the first 10 days of service usage.

For all SOADSL services,the stable line rate will be determined during the first 10 days of service usage.

This site is in an FTTP priority area where FTTP is available but exceptionally SOGEA will also show as available to order but only at Non-Standard Premises (NSP) such as Hot site, Uninhabitable and Temporary locations. Migrations of WLR Solus (voice-only lines) is also allowed but only for SOGEA 0.5Mbps bandwidths.

Actual speeds experienced by end users and quoted by CPs will be lower due to a number of factors within and external to BT's network, Communication Providers' networks and within customer premises.

In order to be eligible for handback, downstream speed should be less than Downstream Handback Threshold values

If you decide to place an order for a WBC fibre product, an appointment may be required for an engineer to visit the end user's premises to supply the service

Mildenhall exchange:Only single order products are available and ADSL and ADSL2+ products are not shown as available.However for premises that can only be served by SOADSL, BT will continue to accept ADSL and ADSL2+ orders until SOADSL is available.

Thank you for your interest

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation

licquorice — Sat, 22 Jul 2023 09:43:18 GMT

Where did you get those costings from? According to the checker, FTTP is available to you so should be no charge.

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation

Joshields17 — Sat, 22 Jul 2023 09:50:36 GMT

We have been quoted this price several times by BT.

FTTP is available, however openreach cannot replace the current copper wire with the fibre optic due to an issue with the ducting.

So they have said that to dig a new trench and add ducting will cost £6.2k.

The one time we managed to talk to an openreach engineer in person they mentioned it was possible to have ut installed overhead into a different room.

Any call I have had since we have been told this isn't possible.

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation

licquorice — Sat, 22 Jul 2023 10:15:23 GMT

That seems very strange, any issues with ducting are normally resolved as part of the install. Did they specify exactly what the problem was?

Try calling the FTTP team and see if they are more forthcoming 0800 587 4787
That number diverts to the normal help desk when busy, if it does just hang up and call again later.

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation

Joshields17 — Sat, 22 Jul 2023 10:55:02 GMT

From my understanding the ducting for the copper cable in the new build is under too much pressure from the concrete above. So it is essentially stuck and cannot be replaced.

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation

iniltous — Sat, 22 Jul 2023 12:28:56 GMT

There are a few questions you haven’t really answered, and you have referred to ‘new build’ a few times , is this what Openreach would recognise as new build property , so a newly built property , on a development of similar properties built by the likes of Persimmon , or is it a one off type build on a vacant plot , or a new build replacing a demolished property ?

Why , if a new build ‘estate’ would there even be the possibility of an alternative overhead option , why would any developer installed , relatively recently laid duct not be serviceable, and if it were not serviceable then given OR have the ‘right’ to access their duct in the adopted road or footpath , why would that be causing any real issue , I suspect there is more to your particular situation than is currently known ( by the forum members )

Can you give a fuller description of the type of property, where it’s situated , and a fuller description of the supposed problems, as what you state seems out of the ordinary on a new build property that Openreach were involved with the supply of the copper pair service to ,

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation

Joshields17 — Sat, 22 Jul 2023 13:01:25 GMT

I guess it is a one off type build on a vacant plot.

The house is a semidetached house built in the last 2 years (we are the first occupiers). Previously there were garages which have been knocked down for the build. It is located on a street parallel to a main road and the house is around 5-10m away from the middle of the street.

The builders of our house have argued that it is serviceable as the copper wire is available for setup. As copper is being phased out this is not what we want.

I'm not an expert in the individual details of this, so apologies if I haven't provided the full picture. However from what I have read I don't think we should be charged £2.8k to get the fibre set up to a house in a built up residential area which has access to FTTP?

The response I have received back from multiple calls with BT is that I have to pay. I called again this morning and believe it has been escalated with Openreach.

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation

imjolly — Sat, 22 Jul 2023 13:50:57 GMT

@Joshields17

as this is new build on a plot that used to be garages have you just recently moved in? is your address correct on the royal mail database. it's as if you are being classified commercial and not residential

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation

iniltous — Sat, 22 Jul 2023 14:52:02 GMT

You have to accept that Openreach is not a charitable organisation and that any installation is ‘limited’ in what OR will cover , if someone on a mountainside built a house , they wouldn’t get water , electricity or gas ‘for free’ , they would have to pay for the infrastructure to reach them , it’s the same to a certain extent with OR communications, your situation is a little more complicated as you live in a built up area ,surrounded by other properties that presumably can get FTTP , but the fundamentals still apply .

Openreach only have a obligation to provide services within a reasonable cost ( to them ) they are allowed to ask for any excess construction charges to be covered by the applicant, the alternative would to simply say you cannot have service , ( which is precisely what would happen if you called Virgin, or City Fibre or Zoom or anyone else ) that obligation is based on a service capable of 10Mb , and can include mobile 4G/5G etc, but as you have a copper pair , (although you would prefer FTTP ) , presumably you could have FTTC via that copper pair and 10Mb or better from that ,so the BT/OR universal service obligation is met .

The limit OR will pay for a ‘line’ ( that actually you already have ) is £3400 anything over that is classed as excess construction, if OR generously say they will use that £3200 figure for FTTP even though you have a copper line ( FTTP isn’t a universal obligation) and the actual costs to get you FTTP are £6000 , OR are still paying more than you , and at probably something like £20 a month or less ( the amount OR receive from the money you pay the ISP ) your installation will take decades before OR get any return on that investment .

If there are some nearby properties served overhead , and by placing a new telegraph pole somewhere on your ‘land’ it would be possible to connect you that way , it could be a cheaper option, if the costs to provide duct are over £6000 and you are not prepared to pay the excess costs.

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation Costs

TVM — Sat, 21 Oct 2023 23:59:11 GMT

Openreach don’t always offer a free full fibre installation. Our tenant placed an order and following an Openreach survey they have been told that they would need to pay £6362(!), which is after the initial £3400 will have been covered by Openreach. The property is in a rural part of North Dorset but only approx 70m from the roadside telegraph pole with the fibre connection. My understanding was that the government, through the BDUK programme, was going to subsidise the deployment of digital infrastructure in rural areas, but these figures suggest otherwise. What is also disconcerting is that once your existing ISP contract expires (assuming you have copper wire feed into the property from the fibre box - FTTC) you will be forced to go with full fibre installation, because Openreach will not be required to maintain the copper wire system after 2025 or 2026.

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation Costs

iniltous — Sun, 22 Oct 2023 14:59:20 GMT

If some happens to be in an area where there is 75% FTTP availability, but they are in the position where excess construction charges would apply to get FTTP installed, although it’s true that on a ‘new’ deal , by either changing provider or agreeing to a new minimum term , that probably would set in motion the process to migrate to FTTP , there is a mechanism, should the consumer not agree to the construction costs to provide an emergency restoration of the previous copper pair service , so basically there is no reason why the consumer would be left without any service .

Its not true to state the copper network won’t be maintained after 2025/2026 , December 2025 is the PSTN switch off , there will be many still on copper pairs after that , it’s just the telephony , if they have it will be DV ( digital voice ) after December 2025 .

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation Costs

Ali148 — Mon, 25 Mar 2024 11:37:42 GMT

I am expected to pay £16,000 inc VAT to have fibre installed. Despite the box they need to connect to being on a pole on our driveway. They have come to this price from 82m of hard dig to install ducting and 1m of soft dig. Despite me telling them that as there are grass verges each side of the driveway (which they describe as carriageway) it would actually be 70odd metres of soft dig and around 6m of hard dig to go across the driveway at 2 junctures and they are simply not interested.

As open reach could not tell what order I wanted to go ahead with in the start (despite me confirming by email straight after they queried and also contacting BT guides on 2 separate occasions who kept me on hold ages so they could speak to openreach) they cancelled the order as they didn't know what provider I wanted to go with! This was 1st October 2023. Had 2 subsequent orders since which have both come back with these preposterous charges, despite various BT guides, including the person I placed the order with on chat, and all of the openreach engineers that attended the site all telling me I shouldn't have to pay a thing. We've had the router connecting with the cabling hanging out of the house for around 4 months and 2 lots of spray all over the driveway. Another big hold up was that openreach were sending the permission to works notice to the wrong address! On my last phone call with a BT guide regarding my order when I asked her what would happen with this digital talk thing as I simply can't afford to pay this sort of money for the install she very helpfully replied with well you won't be able to have a phone! With elderly relatives in the house and sketchy mobile signal that's very helpful thank you very much BT! Oh and openreach won't allow me to place further orders unless I pay the charge, that is their final decision on the matter.

Waiting for the deadlock letter now so I can lodge a complaint with the communications ombudsman.

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation Costs

Ali148 — Mon, 25 Mar 2024 16:18:50 GMT

Even now, if I enter my postcode into the BT site looking for broadband deals it states no upfront costs and I can't find any subject to or T&C's anywhere listing there may be extra construction costs. The amount of time I've wasted trying to get the fibre installed has all been for nothing. Neighbours on my road also have extensive driveways which they've all said they didn't have to pay anything to have it installed. When I placed my first order, prior to BT with cuckoo as I didn't want to be tied in to a 24 month contract, they quoted via open reach just under £10,000. Somehow with BT, who I was transparent with from the start and told them what cuckoo wanted to charge me, they always insisted I wouldn't have to pay anything as they are the universal supplier and yet that price increased by £6000 in just over 6 months. I can't imagine cuckoo covering more then the £3400 BT cover. I think that is the biggest annoyance, there is no way the work required would cost that amount. Even if they did have to do 82m of hard dig, how would that amount to nearly £200 per metre? BT guides and openreach engineers all need to be educated on these charges as they should not be telling customers false information. Mind you, the BT website is just as misleading.

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation Costs

iniltous — Mon, 25 Mar 2024 16:43:05 GMT

If ECC’s ( excess construction charges ) are necessary, that’s an Openreach call , the ISP wont necessarily know in advance….obviously if someone is fortunate to live a significant distance from the road , then why should ‘regular’ customers effectively subsidise that expensive installation ?

In many cases where these costs are deemed appropriate, the landowner can mitigate the costs by undertaking the work within their own curtilage themselves ( then the rate OR charge per metre becomes irrelevant) …if it’s within your wherewithal to either undertake the work yourself, or employ your own contractor, it’s an option to have the duct delivered ( for free ) with details of the depth of cover etc and you lay the duct from your house wall to the boundary of your property yourself , then the hook up costs are significantly reduced, possibly to nothing .

The odd thing is if you have a pole , unless the pole isn’t fed from another pole , but has an underground cable to it , then why isn’t the pole utilised….if the pole simply is the last part of the copper pair route , and the majority is DIG ( direct in ground ) then it makes sense to make the new FTTP route entirely ducted and do away with the pole .

I’m obviously not aware of your personal circumstances, perhaps you are not wealthy as ( for example) a premiership footballer , living in a mansion set back 1km from the road that wanted FTTP ,but it’s not unreasonable to expect someone of those means to contribute towards the costs and not expect to have their expensive installation subsidised by those earning a fraction of what they earn .

If you already have a copper pair service , it’s your choice to elect to have FTTP , if BT have a universal service obligation for telephony, that will work on the existing copper pair ,( even if that’s Digital Voice) if ADSL/FTTC or mobile can provide 10Mb download, then the broadband USO is also satisfied.

Openreach is a business not a charity , you are at liberty to use any network provider you like , if there is only Openreach in your area , and they have to suck up all the expensive installs , charging everyone more than necessary to fund these expensive addresses, then in urban areas where Alt Nets exist, they can easily undercut Openreach prices , that’s an unfair burden on OR

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation Costs

Ali148 — Mon, 25 Mar 2024 17:31:09 GMT

For me, it shouldn't matter what someone's personal circumstances are. BT should not allow you to enter your postcode and for them to offer you 5 variations of fibre at varying costs per month with no upfront costs, and no warning or advance notice of there being further costs to you should more works be required. Plus as already stated, I made it clear that I had been quoted £10k from openreach via a different provider and I was reassured when I placed my order that BT would not charge me anything. As it goes, I am a single parent, renting rooms from my elderly parents and the fibre is available on a post on our driveway which we had to give them access to put there. There is already ducting there as we needed electric down at the driveway entrance but openreach won't utilise it. The existing BT internet is not worth having. At every point whether it be a BT guide or openreach engineer (and there have been many, all different and many with different ideas of what works needed to be done, one even included shutting the road which just goes to show how much they know) I have been assured that there will be no cost to me, this is my issue. Had I been informed at any point there would be a cost then I likely wouldn't have even attempted to have it installed. Even when I placed the 3rd order it was under advice from a BT guide that assumed the cost must be wrong. I am employed full time and cannot afford to pay to have these works done, how are retired people or others less fortunate supposed to manage? And then I just get told I won't be able to have a home phone when the new digital voice comes into force. They are incompetent and that is the politest way to put it. Maybe I would consider paying costs if I felt it matched the works required but what option do I have other than to use a provider that utilises openreach?

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation

waygar — Mon, 25 Mar 2024 18:18:29 GMT

That sounds like a nightmare. We were advised by the developer no need to drill etc as all set up. I am thinking of cancelling BT altogether and just taking the hit with the termination of my contract for all their services i currently pay for as the level of help is nil.

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation

waygar — Mon, 25 Mar 2024 18:21:33 GMT

I just want to transfer my existing BT services over to the new address. The property has just been built and all fibre linked stuff installed, just a case of connecting. Sorry not that tech savvy. I can’t understand why BT can’t just help to make the move.

Re: Openreach Full Fibre Installation Costs

iniltous — Mon, 25 Mar 2024 21:37:12 GMT

The vast majority of installations do not involve excess construction charges, those that do , because the property is situated a significant distance from where the network exists, which is normally in a public area like a telegraph pole ,need to accept that there is a point at which Openreach expect that a contribution needs to be made towards costs , Openreach don’t charge the entire construction amount , if it’s a USO installation, and although no one likes to think they are being excluded on costs grounds , the fact remains individual properties so remote from the public road on extensive driveways are not likely to be welfare cases , they are most likely to be very expensive properties owned by wealthy people.

The fact is that any ISP , or technician won’t know what the excess construction costs are , or even if they apply until the address is flagged as an unusually expensive address to serve , then an Openreach surveyor needs to assess the address , it’s network requirements etc, normally this is done once , so should an ISP enquire about the address resurveying isn’t needed if the household makes another enquiry with a different provider ….TBH , if your original enquiry with Cuckoo ( whoever they are ) provided a cheaper quote than BT …use them , but where did they obtain their costing from ? and the chances are a random Openreach tech will have no training on what constitutes ECC and the rates used to calculate the cost .

Obviously, no one likes paying more for a service like broadband when most get effectively a free installation, but the work involved in getting service to your address is not equivalent to someone living opposite a telegraph pole where a 15m overhead wire is all that required to connect them , why would you think 70,80, 90m of underground ducting would be provided for the same price .

If you consider the work required isn’t substantial and you could get the work done for less than Openreach are stating , it’s common for Openreach to deliver the stores ( the duct ) for free , and when the customer has had it installed, they advise Openreach who revisit and complete the installation…

Openreach won’t for safety reasons use a duct with electrical cables in them , and TBH , a quote like why won’t they put the cable in the same duct as our electric gates at the end of our 90m driveway hardly creates an image of a poor household