This topic

Taking BT to small claims court

rolg1 — Sat, 12 Feb 2022 12:05:55 GMT

I have been with BT for many decades. I recently discovered they over charged me by many hundreds if not thousands. Can anyone advise how to formulate a small claims court challenge to recover some of the excessive charges?

In the last paper contract I managed to find (2014) my proposed monthly total was then £35.79 including line rental, friends and family international, unlimited anytime calls, broadband and calls

At this moment I have not yet managed to find copies of the later contracts.

BT’s disclaimer “You can check your bill at bt.com/my bt” is not a valid justification for charging far in excess of any monthly amounts to which I had explicitly agreed.

Any such disclaimers are invalid as justification for charges far above agreed fees under the Unfair Contract Terms Laws

It’s also extremely unfair and very unethical to expect elderly people to constantly check BT online services to know whether or not they are being over charged by substantial amounts above the expected agreed amounts.

I have been a loyal trusting BT customer for many decades and feel absolutely betrayed, conned and insulted by what has happened.

I’m also not surprised in the slightest to hear there is ongoing class legal action by millions of other BT customers.

I have never received any clear notification advising me of contracts ending nor drastic fee increases being implemented with fees way above what I had agreed when I consented to the direct debit mandate.

Far from resolving anything, to be given a 14 day ultimatum by BT over the X mas period to either accept or lose a tiny amount of compensation offered to avoid a proper examination of the substantial amounts taken from me over time only added insult to injury.

I have been informed by my bank that the refund process of any direct debits that were repaid by BT takes several days to be credited back to my bank account.

My direct debit mandate with BT has ALREADY been reinstated with HSBC so BT can take payments for all undisputed amounts related to my recently renewed contract.

I consider myself to be a reasonable senior citizen who is perfectly entitled by law to right any wrongs that have taken place, for example to charge me a vast amount for work to repair the dilapidated 50 year old BT wiring at my address, without any clear warning whatsoever ( that I would be charged for such essential work/

I would like to come to an agreement on making a payment to BT asap. The ombudsman route is not suitable because the direct debit mandate allows BT to take whatever they wish provided they have "notified customers" of proposed debits, regardless of how difficult it is for elderly people to deal with chains of hyperlinks, passwords and other complicated computer issues.

Instead of sending me messages to go through a chain of links before any bill can be seen, it seems reasonable to expect to receive an Email from BT to my btinternet address each month, stating simply the total amount BT propose to take from my account, WITHOUT forcing me to open any links to MY BT.

12 September 2016 £39.69 = Start of new contract

11 October 2016 £43.08

11 November 2016 £41.56

12 December 2016 £46.33

11 January 2017 £47.51

13 February 2017 £48.23

13 March 2017 £48.21

13 April 2017 £69.67

11 May 2017 £51.50

12 June 2017 £53.86

11 July 2017 £53.45

11 August 2017 £49.63

11 September 2017 £49.87

11 October 2017 £73.72

13 November 2017 £49.95

11 December 2017 £61.44

11 January 2018 £56.25

12 February 2018 £58.85

12 March 2018 £62.44

11 April 2018 £53.22

14 May 2018 £24.48

11 June 2018 £56.96

11 July 2018 £52.14

13 August 2018 £53.17

11 September 2018 £53.69

11 October 2018 £61.27

12 November 2018 £188.83

11 December 2018 £57.01

11 January 2019 £62.62

11 February 2019 £65.26

March 2019 no payment taken

11 April 2019 £39.32

14 May 2019 £56.21

11 June 2019 £45.98

11 July 2019 £48.00

12 August 2019 £47.99

11 September 2019 £52.48

11 October 2019 £45.98

11 November 2019 £45.98

11 December 2019 £46.19

13 January 2020 £50.03

12 February 2020 £53.44

11 March 2020 £53.34

14 April 2020 £46.62

12 May 2020 £50.82

11 June 2020 £46.56

13 July 2020 £46.56

11 August 2020 £53.36

11 September 2020 £59.09

12 October 2020 £59.17

11 November 2020 £59.17

11 December 2020 £59.17

11 January 2021 £59.17

11 February 2021 £58.76

11 March 2021 £61.69

13 April 2021 £63.22

12 May 2021 £61.71

11 June 2021 £62.74

12 July 2021 £61.71

11 August 2021 £61.71

13 September 2021 £61.71

11 October 2021 £61.71

11 November 2021 £63.31

13 December 2021 £62.15

11 January 2022 £36.44

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

imjolly — Sat, 12 Feb 2022 12:14:58 GMT

this is a customer help customer community forum. your post does not go to BT

not sure what you are hoping to achieve posting here?

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

gg30340 — Sat, 12 Feb 2022 12:37:37 GMT

@rolg1 wrote:

I have been with BT for many decades. I recently discovered they over charged me by many hundreds if not thousands. Can anyone advise how to formulate a small claims court challenge to recover some of the excessive charges?

Contact either a solicitor, Citizens Advice or the Small Claims Court who will give you all the advice you will need.

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

rolg1 — Sat, 12 Feb 2022 13:05:51 GMT

Obviously these options exist .. did you think I'm not aware ?

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

gg30340 — Sat, 12 Feb 2022 13:09:26 GMT

@rolg1 wrote:

Obviously these options exist .. did you think I'm not aware ?

So why post here seeking legal advice!

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

rolg1 — Sat, 12 Feb 2022 14:30:36 GMT

Silly answer, I posted here to see if I can find another BT customer who has actually taken a similar case and to find out what the result was, the time it took etc.

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

iniltous — Sat, 12 Feb 2022 15:09:45 GMT

The amounts quoted for each bill are not much use without any context , for example a £70 bill could be reasonable if you were on a call plan where individual calls were charged for and you spent a lot of time that month making calls, where a more reasonable sum of £30 could be the base monthly fee , but that month you made many fewer or no chargeable calls , that’s not to say your complaint isn’t justified, it’s just impossible to know without any additional info.
I think you will find it hard to prove anything though, it’s always been the customer’s responsibility to ensure they are on an appropriate tariff, any ‘monthly’ direct debit cannot be the entire cost as its always been the case that some type of calls are not inside any inclusive calls plan , obviously someone who makes a lot of calls would be affected more by not being on the most appropriate calls plan than someone who doesn’t make calls or makes very few.
As far as charges for ‘internal’ wiring , unfortunately you may be someone who had extensions etc provided by ‘BT’ many years ago , when ‘rental’ covered such things , but it’s been decades since the responsibility for anything other than the master socket was the customer’s own responsibility, and if reporting faults on extensions ,or faulty extensions or extension wiring are causing general issues , fixing what in effect is your own property is chargeable work.

If you reported an extension or associated wiring faulty, or you had a general problem and the test indicates the problem inside your home, you would have been advised that there was potential for charges to be raised , if the fault turned out to be on something you are responsible for , if that warning wasn’t made , you may have a case, if you were advised but insisted on a visit anyway , then any repair on extension sockets , or wiring , even if BT provided in the past , is chargeable, FWIW, any new extension BT may provide is only guaranteed for a year , after that it’s the customer’s responsibility, it’s only the external network that is fixed when faulty as part of the rental agreement ( is this the reason for the November 2018 bill being much more than the normal £30-£70 range ) ?

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

-Richie- — Sat, 12 Feb 2022 15:05:56 GMT

@rolg1wrote:
friends and family international, unlimited anytime calls

Friends and Family International gives a discount on calls overseas, so you would have extra call charges on top when you rang an international number.

Unlimited anytime calls gave you up to an hour calling UK landlines, calls to mobiles and any number not starting 01,02 or 03 would also be chargeable.

@rolg1wrote:
Far from resolving anything, to be given a 14 day ultimatum by BT over the X mas period to either accept or lose a tiny amount of compensation offered to avoid a proper examination of the substantial amounts taken from me over time only added insult to injury.

This sounds like your complaint reached the Executive Customer Resolution team, they offered you a final resolution with the offer available for 14 days, as that happened at Christmas the offer has now lapsed, your deadlock letter is valid for 12 months from the date of the letter to contact the Ombudsman.

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

rolg1 — Sat, 12 Feb 2022 17:55:04 GMT

During the period of the listed debited amounts I was often away for several consecutive months.I would expect to see charges for all of these months clearly noticeable as identical amounts representing the level of charges offered in the contract. Another problem is that when I agreed to contracts previously on the phone I was told I would be clearly notified before the contract comes to and end. In reality this has never happened once.

The BT wiring is at least 40 years old and has never been serviced and so that when they "upgraded" to fibre optic I had to request going back to standard as the "upgrade" had actually made my internet speeds worse. They told me fibre optic only goes as far as a box nearby. The rest goes through the 50 year old corroded wires. The charge for the month BT sent an engineer without ever telling me in advance that I have to pay to repair the wires was £188. Had they told me that I would have simply gone to Virgin or any other provider many of whom were offering cheap deals with new wiring and fast speeds included.

I have already pointed out that BT have no right under the contract to force elderly customers to rely entirely on electronic means to protect themselves against getting over charged.

If it's just a few pounds here and there, perhaps that's ok, but not when it's large sums.

Ultimatums to accept an offer during a period when all offices are closed are a disgusting way of telling loyal customers that they are as valued as the dirt under the chief executive's shoes.

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

-Richie- — Sat, 12 Feb 2022 19:05:22 GMT

@rolg1wrote:
Another problem is that when I agreed to contracts previously on the phone I was told I would be clearly notified before the contract comes to and end. In reality this has never happened once.

This has never been policy until recently (2020), when you agree a price you get the start date of the discount, the value of the discount and the duration confirmed by email or letter depending on the choice you made, it's the customer responsibility to contact BT to negotiate a new discount, although BT will contact customers with offers if BT have permission to do so, known as marketing consent.

@rolg1wrote:
The BT wiring is at least 40 years old and has never been serviced

Openreach own and maintain the network, BT Retail who you had an agreemnt have no control over that.

@rolg1wrote:
The charge for the month BT sent an engineer without ever telling me in advance that I have to pay to repair the wires was £188.

That means the fault or issue was in your own domain, you could of disputed it at the time, Openreach repairs are free of charge for the parts of the network they are responsible for.

@rolg1wrote:
I have already pointed out that BT have no right under the contract to force elderly customers to rely entirely on electronic means to protect themselves against getting over charged.

Age has no bearing, if you have impairments BT will accommodate them, large print for visually impaired, audio for hearing impaired etc, you could of requested a paper bill and paid the paper bill fee though.

@rolg1wrote:
If it's just a few pounds here and there, perhaps that's ok, but not when it's large sums.

No sum of money is ok if it's incorrect, BT would refund any incorrect charges but by not raising it sooner makes it hard or impossible to investigate and verify, the BT terms you agreed to state 'If you genuinely think we’ve made a mistake on your bill, tell us straight away.' - you stated you dispute goes back 6 years or possibly longer.

@rolg1wrote:
Ultimatums to accept an offer during a period when all offices are closed are a disgusting way of telling loyal customers that they are as valued as the dirt under the chief executive's shoes.

They were not closed though, the exception was Christmas Day but Christmas Eve, Boxing day, New Years Eve and New Years Day and the days between were business as usual, you would of been given an resolution offer by your complaint handler, when you declined this is was sent in a letter with 14 days to decide, that's reasonable to me no matter how busy you were during the holiday period.

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

gg30340 — Sat, 12 Feb 2022 19:19:39 GMT

@rolg1 wrote:

I have been with BT for many decades. I recently discovered they over charged me by many hundreds if not thousands. Can anyone advise how to formulate a small claims court challenge to recover some of the excessive charges?

I see that the answer I gave to your question and the title of your post which is quoted above was not to your liking so you now change the question to ...

"Silly answer, I posted here to see if I can find another BT customer who has actually taken a similar case and to find out what the result was, the time it took etc"

Perhaps if you had correctly formulated your post and question in such a manner that people reading it could actually work out what you were trying to ask/achieve you would have been given an answer more to your liking.

It now appears that you are not seeking an answer about how to take BT to a Small Claims Court as you first stated but rather to have a moan about how much you have been charged over a certain period of time despite having been given an explanation and final resolution letter by BT.

If you do want to take BT to a Small Claims Court my first answer still applies because nobody on this forum are qualified to give you any legal advice or assistance in how to go about that because every case is different.

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

Bob1001 — Sun, 13 Feb 2022 08:18:46 GMT

There is a small, very very small minority that pay the GPO/BT (shows how far that goes back) a rental for the phone etc. These people will not have master sockets with everything hard wired and as such BT (no doubt passed to open reach) is still the responsibility of BT.

Some don't have master sockets where the external wiring can be separated and in this case the internal wiring is still the responsibility of BT/Openreach but not the phone.

I now of one lady who was 91 before she died and still had a very noisy Plan 1A, I don't know if anyone ever came out to repair it but the rental was still on her bill.

Other than that all internal wiring and phones that are connected to the customer side of the master socket is owned by the customer and their responsibility. Should I say "Subscriber" to date me.

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

iniltous — Sun, 13 Feb 2022 09:55:46 GMT

AFAIK there has always been a grey area , where hardwired installations were in place , as obviously there isn’t an easy demarcation point that you get with a ‘modern’ NTE, modern being a relative term , NTE5 were the default socket since the early 80’s , ( so 40 years ago )…if ( and it’s a very big ‘if’ ) there are hardwired installations that report a fault and there is a need to convert to a modern NTE , that work is not charged for by Openreach, the problem , potentially , is that by converting to a master socket , that needs a modern phone ( the implication is that a hardwired system would have a hard wired phone ) and the customer may only have the old hard wired phone , but years ago , many installations would convert the BT30 where a phone cord would be connected, to an intermediate point and a master socket connects to that…but that isn’t a hard wired installation, there is a demarcation point .

Admittedly, there may be a very tiny number of original hard wired rotary dial 706/746 ‘Post Office’ phones in use, but how would these people navigate anything other than a personal call, as almost any call to a business , (unless a very small business) requires the * and # key to be pressed and obviously a hard wired 706/746 phone wouldn’t have this.

I’m sure I read , many years ago, that ‘BT’ effectively stopped charging rental on the very few customers that were paying rental on a phone instrument and the rental phone became the renters property, if there were some that were missed that’s unfortunate , but it must be rare that anyone would continue to pay a few ££ per month rental on an item that can be had for the equivalent of 2-3 months rental, as far as the OP, there is no suggestion that they were hardwired or paying rental on a phone instrument

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

Bob1001 — Sun, 13 Feb 2022 09:56:58 GMT

@iniltousThe old lady I knew liked her ivory 232s and did not want to change them, I updated them from candlesticks over 50 years ago when I was a T2A. She was deaf anyway so it probably did not matter if the phones still worked now.

PS I bought the candlesticks from the GPO to the best of my recollection they cost me 5 shillings, I still have them.

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

-Richie- — Sun, 13 Feb 2022 11:00:22 GMT

@iniltouswrote:
I’m sure I read , many years ago, that ‘BT’ effectively stopped charging rental on the very few customers that were paying rental on a phone instrument and the rental phone became the renters property

You are correct, there are no rentals anymore and anyone that had them are now free.

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

rolg1 — Sun, 13 Feb 2022 11:24:03 GMT

You obviously have nothing better to do with your time than whinge about matters that do not concern you in any way.

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

rolg1 — Sun, 13 Feb 2022 11:49:32 GMT

Why do you think what you wrote has anything to do with the fact that

at my address the BT wiring that connects to their junction box somewhere down the road goes through an ancient GPO terminal on the outside wall of the house, that has been exposed to weather for 40 or 50 years ??

I should never have be charged for repairing any of its corroded terminals or work to re-connect wires that had gone open or short circuit as a result of corrosion. Faults in ancient outside GPO wiring that had repeatedly caused my phone not to work cannot possibly have been my responsibility, regardless of changes in BT terms and conditions over the years.

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

Bob1001 — Sun, 13 Feb 2022 11:56:22 GMT

@rolg1 You are correct you should never be charged for any repairs from your master socket outwards. And if no master socket NTE5 type you should not be charged for any wiring repairs.

If you reported a fault from the master socket inwards then you will be charged and also if no fault is found anywhere and it works then you can be charged for the visit.

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

iniltous — Sun, 13 Feb 2022 13:09:36 GMT

I’m sure no one is arguing that any repair to what Openreach are responsible for should be anything other than free ( included in the line rental more accurately ) but internal wiring is another matter, if you reported a fault and the issue was ‘external’ then the only justification for a charge would be if the lineplant were damaged rather than fair wear and tear ( digging up the driveway and chopping an underground cable isn’t fair we’re and tear so would be charged for ) , 40 years of weather degrading an external connection block is fair wear and tear and the repair or replacement is covered and not charged for….if you were charged for something like this , the details can be reviewed and if appropriate the charges refunded ( if a charge were made in error )

Re: Taking BT to small claims court

rolg1 — Sun, 13 Feb 2022 14:34:54 GMT

Repairs to lines dead as a door nail because of open or short circuits caused by corroded contacts in 50 year old GOP wires cannot be made the responsibility of anyone other than the legal owner of such wiring.