Ping spikes

[cowo8]

after threatening to swap to the cheaper zen for the same speeds and no reported ping issues, i've been told my exec resolutions that the case has been sent to their engineering team who will make further changes... so hopefully it'll be something like @MarkG33 resolution. 

it was definitely helpful bringing up the contract e.g. perfect for gaming as well as giving a deadline before i leave as i'm already out of contract. tbh the only reason im not leaving already is because i can't be bothered to move unless i have to.

@MarkG33 were you told anything specific about the changes being made to your line so i can bring it up if needed? 

[CloudGamer]

Am sure I have shared what helped me resolve massive packet loss and ping variation on loaded and unloaded network which not just also helps you guys out but it proves BT need to provide firmware updates for their hubs to provide better management of network traffic packet QoS prioritisation and device and/or application prioritisation.

Basically for now, we need to use a router that supports ##-WRT firmware until BT sort their stuff out.

Many routers from 2012 or newer which get advertised as "gaming router", " Gamestream Ready Router", "Cloud gaming certified router"  or GeForce Now Ready Router are all worth checking out specs and features for.

BT will send an engineer out if you threaten too leave, who will just check your internet connection speed and connection parameters to nearest exchange center and your router.   Your router or home network are not really checked in any detail.   Same if a third party representative acting on BTs behalf visits, they just really check you have a working internet connection that appears to be performing to minimum requirement.

It is obvious to me even as an ignoramus  services like Netfilix are using some kind of QoS prioritisation for their services and servers and client devices.  BT Hubs are freaking out because of their restrictive and featureless firmware preventing end users managing QoS and other parameters,  uo stop messing with gaming network traffic which has not been configured appropriately.

I am shocked at BT being so slow at listening and acting on what many customers have been communicating for more than a year.

There are also some great info on Thinkbroadband forums confirming many other things are contributing this weird behaviour of gaming traffic and streaming services which include issues with hardware in cabinets, issues with underground components, issues with overloaded infrastructure, which helps show BT Engineers are not being listened to by OpenReach.     

Ultrafast internet connection does not help either even if you fortunate enough to have that option and is one of the big reasons of how and why i got into cloud gaming using Shadow.  I get to enjoy the benefits of 1Gbps down and 100 Mbps thanks to my gaming vm in Data Centre using enterprise grade internet connection and even see ping of 0 to game servers when ga!e server being used is in same DC.

I have refused offers of £100 gift vouchers for compensation for my reported issues not being fixed and for the really bad support.   Have politely refused every time, though now have several BT Hubs  and two Smart Hubs which I paid money for.

The £350 is spent anew modem and a new router is best money I spent in long time.   I learned the hard way and few folks would have the spare time or will to go through I did this past year.   Too many companies brushing off too many customers with really bad support.

My new router has made a massive difference.   No need to change ISP, though others reporting this helps resolve the issues is really backing up my claim.   It really just the different router that helped.  Or more specifically the other routers firmware.

So come on, let's help BT make their service better.   And help prove they need to provide better firmware for their Hubs and Smart Hubs if they really want gamers to be using their broadband packages and using a router provided by BT.

Ref:   https://community.bt.com/t5/Home-setup-Wi-Fi-network/Is-My-BT-Internet-Connection-Suitable-For-Next-...

[MarkG33]

@cowo8 

Unfortunately nothing specific was said just a 'Profile change.' Sorry. 

Whoever you're going to talk to I'd just mention that on the forum the moderators have been helping people on an individual case by case basis and all I know is profile changes have been deployed for those helped.

To me it's obvious enough this is definitely on their side and whatever has gotten changed does in fact make a difference.

Can a mod not just help you on here? It was super simple to get done. 

Best of luck anyhow. 

[dubstepzombie]

@CloudGamer 

Never really even considered any of the cloud gaming services, no idea how a cloud gaming setup compares to using a 144Hz refresh rate 2K gaming screen with minimal input latency, 1000Hz gaming mouse and keyboard, high end CPU and GPU hitting 300+FPS also for low input latency. Being a local setup the network requirements of bandwidth are minimal but is latency sensitive.

Certainly any latency in the outbound packets is going to have a massive impact on your game play, that must be in effect the latency of your movements / user input.  No idea what frame rate a cloud gaming service runs at, if it's 60 FPS then you're going to need a constant 16ms or less latency for inbound data - the complete frame data. Although being 1 or two frames out of sync i.e. 16 / 32 ms buffering wound't be a massive problem, you'd still want all of your frame data to complete in about 16ms ready for the next frame. If that's the rate it runs at then a 100ms spike in latency means you've lost 6+ frames of game movements, likely a noticeable stutter.

In general I'd expect you'll have the same problem compared to non cloud gaming if you've got random ping spikes although you're reliant on in effect streaming which we know causes ping issues for gaming packets. With a local setup you can at least game if you're network is quiet.

From what we've seen routers might help lessen the problem but it definitely doesn't solve the problem although cloud gaming is reliant on a higher bandwidth and low latency, so certainly for this problem / thread that's uncharted territory. I suspect no one has looked at the effect of streaming on outbound latency seeing as a ping is a measuring both outbound and inbound times but if streaming does create ping spikes on outbound traffic then cloud gaming has got to be extra painful.

[GazzaLFC]

Just to add to dubstepzombie's comment above.

 QoS on a decent router will only soften the blow of the issue and will not fix it.

I have many graphs with QoS on and off when I had the issue and now the issues has been fixed.

QoS gave better results on both fronts but it never fixed the issue. (Made games playable again though)

I would highly recommend people look into a decent QoS router/method as it will improve any connection for gaming IF configured correctly. Just don't expect QoS to fix this issue, it will just mask it.

Thanks Gazza 

[george1976]

My bad if I took it the wrong way, it felt like you were looking down on those with the issues and scratching your beard 🙂

[CloudGamer]

@GazzaLFC  @dubstepzombie 

Some apps like Steam have a "prioritise network traffic" option in advanced streaming host settings.

This fixes the issues.

Other apps like Netflix etc seem to be applying their own packet prioritisation which is not configurable and can not be switched OFF by end users.  This is the problem, imo.

This is the problem I think, service providers of streaming services are somehow applying their own methodologies to prioritise their network traffic.   imo.

So I think QoS management by end users is actually the solution.   Not just a mask or a workaround or happy coincided dentally helps.

I guess the closest thing to an industry standard for allowing end users to manage these things is thanks to DD-WRT which is open sourced so there are many variants/versions.    

We need BT Smart Hubs to have BT-WRT firmware added.   imo

But again this do not solve problem if service providers do not find a standardised way to prioritise their network traffic.

End users can also try using VPN or changing DNS servers to change routes taken to DCs to help with those ping spikes.    Again having a router with the ability to setup VPN server etc directly on router through firmware settings is also key to managing these issues.

Again Valves Steam client with its streaming tech Remote Play is another good example, as it ensures a known route is taken to both Valve servers and game servers, to help make sure a known backbone is used.  Valves Remote PLay i basically how any gamer can make their own personalised game server/cloud accessible from any device supported by Steam Link App or Steam client.

And cloud gaming vms like Paperspace and Shadow that give a full gaming on windows gaming experience is how gamers can enjoy the benefits of enterprise grade Ultrafast speeds and enjoy latest pc games without owning a high end gaming spec pc.   And enjoy the benefits of Steam Remote Play to its full potential or choose to use any other streaming app they wish like Parsec, Rainway, Moonlight, Gamestream etc etc.   Exactly like local pc. 😉

[CloudGamer]

"But again this do not solve problem if service providers do not find a standardised way to prioritise their network traffic."

Is this the real problem?

Another thing that can possibly help with those ping spikes is switching off BT-FON on your BT account.   I switched this off before I got my new router and may have overlooked at this as contributing to better ping/latency as really need to try switching it back on again to see .    

How do we know if GCHQ or NSA are not interfering with our internet traffic?

[cowo8]

I did speak to a mod on here but as my case is with exec resolutions they can't help me!

[dubstepzombie]

I don't believe any ISP will take any notice of the QoS coming from a consumer internet connection, if they did it would just create a QoS battle with everyone wanting their packets prioritized. As far as I know BT don't apply and traffic shaping or priority, they don't need to, we all have enough bandwidth to stream 8K video, just not at the same time as gaming which is what the problem is.

QoS is useful on a LAN level if you've got a contested network but for a typical home setup it shouldn't be needed unless someone was consuming 100% of the bandwidth, like you have a heavy downloader in your household. We don't use QoS at work and that's a big network, there's never been a problem with something not working properly...

BT know what the problem is for sure, they've been fixing connections including mine, for some reason they aren't willing to share the details.

I've posted these graphs many times, below is before the fix, ping with spamming next track on Tidal,  that's just music - not even video. Guess where is stopped spamming the next track...

After the fix, exact same test, no QoS or net limiting needed.

Here's another test I did,  pinging the same destination IP address and streaming 2 X 8K videos. I've done similar tests at work via a Virgin connection and got similar results. This is what you all should be getting and able to do assuming you've got a reasonable connection to the road side cabinet.