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Message 151 of 1,014

Re: Unplayable lag when netflix is running

I have read that if you prove that BT broadband isn't usable / fit for purpose then you won't have to pay any cancellation fee. Of course you'll need to give BT a chance to sort out the problems which I think they won't be able to.

The problem I can see here is that BT can claim it delivers good through put xxMB\s and therefore is fully usable broadband, as per my broadband.

My mobile phone also gave me excellent through put via speedtest .net 2 to 3 MB\s but was totally useless for gaming - packet loss, jitter and latency was the problem...

IMO BT broadband suffers badly from jitter when other users are putting load on the connection resulting in somewhere between a bad to impossible online gaming experience.

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Message 152 of 1,014

Re: Unplayable lag when netflix is running

It's just not on considering most people could be paying nearly a 50% markup on BT compared with other ISP.
From a physical point of view I can't understand this as from ISP to ISP coppers do not change yet our latency does, it HAS to be caused from the exchange to BT just using common sense
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Message 153 of 1,014

Re: Unplayable lag when netflix is running

 

From my tests the jitter or ping spikes were happening at the very first hop, what and where that is I have no idea, I might be able to get some info from the DNS entry later. I do know where I live they keep building houses - like 100's. 

These will all feed into the same exchange, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's just network conjestion at some level and BT just using some clever algorithm to get more out of the same hardware, providing it's giving the required bandwidth who cares about latency and jitter because users only watch netflix, email and browse 😕

You should google for 'samknows exchange' this gives detailed exchange info including what ISPs have hardware in your exchange, my exhange has Sky equipment which is why I'd be keen in switching over to Sky.

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Message 154 of 1,014

Re: Unplayable lag when netflix is running

Here's a tracert snippet to my Overwatch game server, I can't get any DNS info on these  IP addresses, they seem to be recognised by a BT name server which is no surprise. 31.55.186.181  and 31.55.186.188 don't seem to reliably respond to a ping. I bet 172.16.17.59 is inside the exchange, certainly not my internel network which is on a 192 subnet. So generally before my IP packets even reach the bt core network they're already messed up.

2 4 ms 4 ms 3 ms 172.16.17.59
3 * * 7 ms 31.55.186.181 
4 8 ms 7 ms 7 ms 31.55.186.188
5 9 ms 8 ms 9 ms 195.99.127.90
6 84 ms 8 ms 8 ms peer2-et-7-0-0.slough.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.252.112]
7 17 ms 19 ms 25 ms 195.66.226.234

Good old fashioned ping 🙂

Just a small quick random sample of a ping to the first hop that responds reliably to a ping with a route to my Overwatch game server while I flipped a few tracks on Tidal, easily shows the problem.

Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=8ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=8ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=101ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=121ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=164ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=155ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=24ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=8ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=133ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=8ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=174ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=8ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=115ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=103ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=8ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=95ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=78ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=8ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=8ms TTL=250
Reply from 195.99.127.90: bytes=32 time=8ms TTL=250

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Message 155 of 1,014

Re: Unplayable lag when netflix is running

Tested another game server earlier, a Steam server, that was even worse, paid for and installed Net limiter again, limited Tidal to 450KB/s, set Ovewatch network to critical - still could easily see in game stutters.

I've made a complaint - totally useless broadband.

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Message 156 of 1,014

Re: Unplayable lag when netflix is running

This has been going on for a while, if you google and search these forums you'll find many other posts.

This user swapped to zen and solved their lag problems.

https://community.bt.com/t5/Home-setup-Wi-Fi-network/Latency-issue/td-p/1922286

I'm going to focus my efforts on swapping ISP, I bet no other top tier ISP will have these lag problems.

 

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Message 157 of 1,014

Re: Unplayable lag when netflix is running

If anyone is interested these IP addresses  31.55.186.181 and 31.55.186.188 using 'iplocation. net' are in the London area assuming this website is accurate, so definitely not in my exchange, the 172 address is a private IP range so as mentioned I bet that's inside my exchange.

I might be able to use hrPing to ping the 172 address, this utility allows the TTL to be set.

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Message 158 of 1,014

Re: Unplayable lag when netflix is running

Ok what I've done is gone through the report a broadband fault and going down the route of BT broadband not supplying broadband that's fit for purpose.

Apparently there is a fault or something that can be done between the street side cabinet and the exchange, so a BT engineer will be attending Monday / Tuesday - probably not Monday because it's a bank holiday and solving the problem. The person I spoke to was very sure this can be sorted out and it's not problem with the BT infrasturture, certainly my tests show the problem happening very close or at the start of the route, so this fits with what Im seeing.

I did mention others are seeing this problem and got told to not listen to online opinions 🙂

There was mention of changing / increasing the modulation so perhaps sorting out the conneciton from the cabinet to the exchange ? 

The good news is I have a clear test I can run and see if it's fixed in a matter of minutes, having it fixed would be the easy solution so I'm hoping there is a fix. Odd that it's all so delicate and no mention of what might have caused the problem, I'd still guess at it's probably too many houses linking into the same cabinet / exchange.

If there is no solution  BT will need to waiver the termination fee seeing as the broadband isn't fit for gaming, I like the idea of trying Zen, although I will be using the cooling off period and if Zen isn't up the job then probably move onto Sky.

For assusement here's a ping trace to the Overwatch game server with some Steam downloading happening, including 0.93% packet loss, fair enough we all know to not download when gaming  but it does show why this wouldn't be a good idea with a BT connection. Anyhow I hope everyone on this thread gets their problem solved one way or anoyher, I'll report back after "the fix" 😉

ow.png

 

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Message 159 of 1,014

Re: Unplayable lag when netflix is running

Thanks again. I may need to go down the same route.

Can you describe how to get the results you got (programmes etc) or is it down to you having a different non BT router?
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Message 160 of 1,014

Re: Unplayable lag when netflix is running

There's many programs you can use, I've mainly used 'ping tracer 1.8' that graphs all the hops / switches to the destination IP address, google for (this forum blocks links) 'ping tracer 1.8 github', it's an open source project. This makes it easy to visualise the problem as a whole.

Pick a destination IP address, this can be any internet address that will respond to a ping but I'd pick a game server you care about, google for 'gametracker', this has loads of game server IP addresses or google for 'overwatch game server ip address' or whatever game you've been having problems with. Pick something in the UK or Europe, anything in the US you'll have 100+ms base ping.

Put the IP address into whatever ping software you choose, start the ping going, what you're looking for is a stable response +/- a few ms, if you see 1 or many responses that are significantly higher than your base ping that will equate to in game stutters and lag.

So I'd say +10ms not good but you might not notice that much, spike of  +50ms that's going to be noticable, if you're playing FPS games then you're likely going to be at a disadvantage, +100ms and above will be a horrid online gaming experience, just forget it. Alot of games compensate for higher pings but probably fair to say won't cope that well with random ping spikes, I can easily detect gaming on a US server vs a server in Europe. Probably a stable higher ping would be better than inconsistent ping spikes.

Of course if these spikes only happen once every 30 secs then you might be able to cope with them, but if they happen every second or few seconds or less it's just going to result in a unplayable online game.

The trigger for the problem is to moderately use your internet connection either from the same PC or another PC on your LAN, so I have 6MB/s bandwidth, using 0.5MB/s shouldn't have a major impact on your ping, it may lift it a few ms but not 100+ms and not induce massive spikes.

So below just using the standard ping built into Windows from a DOS window with -t to keep the ping going you can see my base ping is 17ms ish,  I was downloading when I tested this but you can see below massive jumps in ping response. Bear in mind that most online games have a 60  per second tick rate, which means your local game gets 60 updates per second. The below ping is running at 1 ping per second or 1 update per second, so the fact this is picking up an issue in just  a few pings says when this is ramped up to 60 times a second for an online game the effect is likely going to be much worse. Also watch out for 'no responses', these are dropped packets and just as bad or even worse than a high ping spike, in ping tracer 1.8 these are shown as a red line.

To put this another way, to get 60 updates per second you need a 16ms ping, if your ping is 100ms then your game is only gong to get 10 updates per second, 250ms only 4 updates per second, even if your GPU / monitor refresh rate is high all the game activity will only get changed every 4 times a second. As mentioned games will compensate /  do interpolation between network updates to smooth out movements but there are limits to this. The below is only doing 32 byte pings, most games will be doing larger payloads, such as 100's of bytes per packet, in other words pinging with 32 bytes isn't really asking too much.

ping 185.60.112.157 -t

Pinging 185.60.112.157 with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=38ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=15ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=130ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=32ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=15ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=16ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=43ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=15ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=15ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=128ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=26ms TTL=245
Reply from 185.60.112.157: bytes=32 time=66ms TTL=245

Note that most games use UDP for speed and not TCP, TCP has built in error checking and retransmission, UDP doesn't, this is why any other activities on the internet such as browsing, downloading, youtube, netflix works with out any issues plus the fact these activities do plenty of buffering and caching.

Digging a little deeper if you wanted to with 'tracert' and ping tracer you can get an idea where the problem might be. These will show all the hops / switches your gaming data packets will go through to get to a destination address. I wouldn't pay a too much attention to the ping to the individual hops other than if you're seeing a consistent /  massive difference on one of the hops that might be the reason for the destination IP address having a ping spike.
As below if for example hop number 6 had a 100ms time then that would indicate the bt core network was over loaded or has some sort of problem. Another example would be hop number 1 having a high ping, this is from my PC to the router / internet gateway, if I was on Wifi with a bad signal then perhaps this might show something, I'm fully wired and as you'd expect there's zero issues here.


You will find some hops don't respond to a ping, I wouldn't worry too much about these, it's the destination ping that's the really important result and really what BT needs to fix.


tracert 185.60.112.157
1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms home.router [192.168.7.1]
2 4 ms 3 ms 3 ms 172.16.17.59
3 * * * Request timed out.
4 14 ms 8 ms 7 ms 31.55.186.176
5 34 ms 9 ms 8 ms core4-hu0-16-0-3.faraday.ukcore.bt.net [195.99.127.206]
6 28 ms 26 ms 20 ms peer2-et3-1-3.slough.ukcore.bt.net [62.172.103.218]
7 9 ms 10 ms 8 ms 195.66.226.234
8 37 ms 42 ms 58 ms ae1-br01-eqld5.as57976.net [137.221.79.33]
9 39 ms 18 ms 14 ms et-0-0-2-br02-eqam1.as57976.net [137.221.65.91]
10 68 ms 55 ms 68 ms et-0-0-67-pe01-eqam1.as57976.net [137.221.78.71]
11 15 ms 14 ms 14 ms 185.60.112.157

It's possible others on here have different problems but give the same symptons of online gaming lag, there are many other possibilities. I would though make sure your LAN, router and PC aren't the source of the problem before beating up BT 🙂

What I'll do when BT does their fix is simply start up ping trace with my Overwatch game server IP address, start Tidal (music streaming) and skip tracks for a few  minutes, if I see no ping spikes then it's fixed. I know what the broken result looks like and I know there's no issue with Virgin so I don't see how they can argue with that. It doesn' have to be Tidal, just some other activity that puts a load on your internet e.g. download a Steam game but set the download rate to something sensible.