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brummygit
Aspiring Expert
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Message 761 of 1,165

Re: Whole Home WiFi firmware update v1.02.04 build10


@Benjaminleowrote:


Where on there does it say it each disc needs to be connected by ethernet.
Clue: It doesnt.
Why is that I wonder... maybe because it was never designed for that purpose. Fact is, the intended purpose BT sold these points for is faulty.

I am not wiring up these discs. Only a fool would do that. I am considering wiring up APs but i wont be using these discs because theyre not really fit for that job.


I'm a fool then as all of mine are connected via gigabit ethernet and provide excellent service to my wireless devices. I had never planned wireless backhaul. It's designed to provide either in a flexible manner.

There is no fault in these BT units - only a buggy firmware release. Most users have been very happy up to this release.

siwhite
Contributor
561 Views
Message 762 of 1,165

Re: Whole Home WiFi firmware update v1.02.04 build10


@brummygitwrote:

@Benjaminleowrote:

(my original post before it got edited):

@siwhite You are talking absolute garbage. So youre telling me that in a large office building, or a hotel, or a hospital, or a large shop or the tube or anywhere else that uses multiple AP's connected via ethernet that every time your device move between access points you have to re-authenticate? Are you telling me all their APs are interfering with each other and also that theyre not seamless?Cos if thats what you’re telling me then you are completely incorrect!

Look up Ubiquiti APs. Thats what is used in offices/hotels/hospitals/large shop/tube etc. That is what you should be using if you are connecting each points directly with ethernet. Theyre not even expensive. Get your facts right for god sake. and no. for the last time, that is not what this product is intended for!

Even if you didn’t want to go for something that pro, a few powerline adapters with built in wifi would do just as good a job as the bt whole home. Or even a few bog standard APs plugged into your homeplugs configured correctly would work fine. I’ve done it before, it works.

Movies-Games-and-Tech-Review-BT-Whole-Home-WiFi-6


Where on there does it say it each disc needs to be connected by ethernet.
Clue: It doesnt.
Why is that I wonder... maybe because it was never designed for that purpose. Fact is, the intended purpose BT sold these points for is faulty.

I am not wiring up these discs. Only a fool would do that. I am considering wiring up APs but i wont be using these discs because theyre not really fit for that job.


@Benjaminleo you really aren't paying attention.

Firstly nobody said that with mesh you need to re-authenticate. What was said is that BT Whole Home is a mesh networking system as it manages intelligent hand-off so that re-authentication is not necessary. It also hands off due to signal strength or congestion. Basic APs (and WiFi extenders) require re-authenication.

Secondly all APs (mesh or not) require backhaul connectivity. With mesh systems it is generally possible to use WiFi or Ethernet backhaul. This is no different with BTWH. Nobody has said you must use Ethernet backhaul (it's your choice) but it can be beneficial because it avoids consumption of available wifi bandwidth for backhaul, it allows discs to be placed so that they don't need to see each other over wireless even though a client device can be at a midpoint between 2 discs and still get seamless handoff, and it can be very useful if there is interference in the radio spectrum which causes disruption to the backhaul communications. 

BTWH doesn't have a dedicated radio for backhaul therefore using WiFi is a compromise.

There is no reason for people not to choose Homeplugs for backhaul, although there are lots of mixed opinions on their performance - I've never had a good experience. Wired gigabit ethernet will of course be better, but in most cases is not really going to gain much.

Often people forget that their limiting factor is the internet bandwidth into their homes and chase utopia when actually they only need a maximum of 80mbps through their lan, but for other users who have internal to internaly traffic it can be a different story. It's horses for courses, but don't criticise other people for differing decisions to your own which are equally valid.

Finally you are wrong regarding enterprise deployment of WiFi. I recently oversaw the roll out of over 1700 wireless APs into a UK NHS hospital. Every single AP was wired for Ethernet backhaul - the reason was to ensure we had the bandwidth required (you'll soon fill your network if you start daisy chaining APs), avoid impact by interference (try deploying wifi near MRI scanners!!) and to avoid needing to ensure every AP didn't need to see its neighbours as radio power needs to be throttled down to manage overlap with the limited spectrum allocations (especially on 2.4Ghz).  This is the same in offices, hotels and many other installations I've been involved in. Wireless backhaul is used on some external implementations in my experience, but remember that the wireless spectrum is a shared medium which quickly becomes congested and is easily disrupted therefore many designers prefer the guaranteed performance of wires (or optical).


@brummygit Thank you. I was going to get to this tomorrow but you’ve written it way more eloquently than I might have done. 

tribunepind
Contributor
531 Views
Message 763 of 1,165

Re: Whole Home WiFi firmware update v1.02.04 build10


@Benjaminleowrote:
There’s better and cheaper solutions if you are able to wire your house up. I’m sure it works flawlessly wired, but you could get an ‘as good’ or better solution for about half the cost. You’re paying more for whole home because it’s able to mesh wirelessly. That’s the selling point. Wiring it in means it’s USP is worthless. That’s the reason most people purchased it.

Also this thread is about issues with the latest update, it’s not a ‘my system is working great’ thread. Why are people posting how great their system is working wired? It’s like going to Alcoholics Anonymous and extolling the virtues of gin...

The thread is about the latest firmware,  if I have no issues with it using a wired backhaul then I will post to let others know.  Maybe it will help BT sort out issues people are having by focusing on the wireless backhaul aspect  which appears to cause issues for people? 

As for better cheaper solutions,  please enlighten me as to a solution  that provides intelligent hand-off etc. 

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foz
Aspiring Expert
486 Views
Message 764 of 1,165

Re: Whole Home WiFi firmware update v1.02.04 build10


@Jim-ladwrote:
@foz- are you actually reading the posts. It's a serious question because if you have you will have read that whilst you don't have to connect a further disk to Ethernet it helps with back haul as these disks dont use a dedicated channel for back haul.

Some mesh products do use a dedicated channel. An additional Ethernet connected disk will also speed up your network and provide additional stability.

It has to be your choice.
Am i reading the posts LOL, ARE YOU!!!
I stated way way way back in this thread that i had mine set with Ethernet and fixed WLAN channels made mine a lot more stable.
Trouble is your totally missing the point here, you seem to have tunnel vision, your post indicates to me your thinking "mine works you lot saying it does not work must be doing something wrong" Fact we're NOT!! Just accept that fact.
The point is, prior to this firmware update they didn’t need an Ethernet backhaul or WLAN fixed channels and didn't need a reboot every day/week!!! THAT'S A FACT
It would be fine if you stated in your posts this will help improve your stability/setup while running this current buggy firmware to your posts. (If you accepted there was a problem with the firmware that is)
But the truth is you should not need to use Powerline adapters or Ethernet backhaul or even a fixed WLAN channel (and didn't prior to this last firmware update)
The overwhelming fact is BT know they have issues with this firmware, they're even swapping out disc's telling people not to upgrade to this latest version FACT, (BT accept there is an issue with the firmware by issuing that statement saying do not upgrade)
If it was a hardware issue that BT are aware of you would have thought the replacement discs that get dispatched would be with the working hardware if it was a chipset or component issue, so my thoughts are BT really don’t have a clue what’s wrong or going on. It would also indicate to me that BT don’t have a clue due to the time period its take.

 

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mikew88
Aspiring Expert
474 Views
Message 765 of 1,165

Re: Whole Home WiFi firmware update v1.02.04 build10


@GCALwrote:
If people have the infrastructure and kit to wire up their discs then fine. You shouldn’t have to though to make it work well. My 5 work fine for an average 10 days but then keel over. Keeled over right now so I’m on 4g. It’s poor. They’ve been doing thus ever since Feb firmware update. Frustrating for my twins doing their gcses (O levels as they now are again) and needing to use the gcsepod etc. BT have screwed up big style on this and they are very aware of that. Wish they’d hurry up and fix it.

Does a quick restart of the primary disc not sort them out for another 10 days and keep the kids studying? Not ideal I know. I guess you can also connect a laptop to the router if all else fails, or switch on the router WiFi again and get the kids to work closer to the router. Again not ideal I know. Have you tried a complete factory reset of everything, set 5 ghz channel to 48, reposition the discs (sometimes just moving one does the trick), and reset all network setting on your devices. That process worked for me.

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Jim-lad
Expert
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Message 766 of 1,165

Re: Whole Home WiFi firmware update v1.02.04 build10


@brummygitwrote:

@Benjaminleowrote:

(my original post before it got edited):

@siwhite You are talking absolute garbage. So youre telling me that in a large office building, or a hotel, or a hospital, or a large shop or the tube or anywhere else that uses multiple AP's connected via ethernet that every time your device move between access points you have to re-authenticate? Are you telling me all their APs are interfering with each other and also that theyre not seamless?Cos if thats what you’re telling me then you are completely incorrect!

Look up Ubiquiti APs. Thats what is used in offices/hotels/hospitals/large shop/tube etc. That is what you should be using if you are connecting each points directly with ethernet. Theyre not even expensive. Get your facts right for god sake. and no. for the last time, that is not what this product is intended for!

Even if you didn’t want to go for something that pro, a few powerline adapters with built in wifi would do just as good a job as the bt whole home. Or even a few bog standard APs plugged into your homeplugs configured correctly would work fine. I’ve done it before, it works.

Movies-Games-and-Tech-Review-BT-Whole-Home-WiFi-6


Where on there does it say it each disc needs to be connected by ethernet.
Clue: It doesnt.
Why is that I wonder... maybe because it was never designed for that purpose. Fact is, the intended purpose BT sold these points for is faulty.

I am not wiring up these discs. Only a fool would do that. I am considering wiring up APs but i wont be using these discs because theyre not really fit for that job.


@Benjaminleo you really aren't paying attention.

Firstly nobody said that with mesh you need to re-authenticate. What was said is that BT Whole Home is a mesh networking system as it manages intelligent hand-off so that re-authentication is not necessary. It also hands off due to signal strength or congestion. Basic APs (and WiFi extenders) require re-authenication.

Secondly all APs (mesh or not) require backhaul connectivity. With mesh systems it is generally possible to use WiFi or Ethernet backhaul. This is no different with BTWH. Nobody has said you must use Ethernet backhaul (it's your choice) but it can be beneficial because it avoids consumption of available wifi bandwidth for backhaul, it allows discs to be placed so that they don't need to see each other over wireless even though a client device can be at a midpoint between 2 discs and still get seamless handoff, and it can be very useful if there is interference in the radio spectrum which causes disruption to the backhaul communications. 

BTWH doesn't have a dedicated radio for backhaul therefore using WiFi is a compromise.

There is no reason for people not to choose Homeplugs for backhaul, although there are lots of mixed opinions on their performance - I've never had a good experience. Wired gigabit ethernet will of course be better, but in most cases is not really going to gain much.

Often people forget that their limiting factor is the internet bandwidth into their homes and chase utopia when actually they only need a maximum of 80mbps through their lan, but for other users who have internal to internal traffic it can be a different story. It's horses for courses, but don't criticise other people for differing decisions to your own which are equally valid.

Finally you are wrong regarding enterprise deployment of WiFi. I recently oversaw the roll out of over 1700 wireless APs into a UK NHS hospital. Every single AP was wired for Ethernet backhaul - the reason was to ensure we had the bandwidth required (you'll soon fill your network if you start daisy chaining APs), avoid impact by interference (try deploying wifi near MRI scanners!!) and to avoid needing to ensure every AP had to see its neighbours as radio power needs to be throttled down to manage overlap with the limited spectrum allocations (especially on 2.4Ghz).  This is the same in offices, hotels and many other installations I've been involved in. Wireless backhaul is used on some external implementations in my experience, but remember that the wireless spectrum is a shared medium which quickly becomes congested and is easily disrupted therefore many designers prefer the guaranteed performance of wires (or optical).


@brummygit At last, some sanity.  A post of good information and technical know how.  Let's hope this thoughful piece settles this issue once and for all.

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Steve59
Aspiring Expert
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Message 767 of 1,165

Re: Whole Home WiFi firmware update v1.02.04 build10

Interesting experiment which I performed twice as I was surprised by the result, on both occassions....

I connected 1 of my 4 discs to ethernet via a Powerline Plug and ran a speedtest, it dropped from 36mbps (what my Broadband is) to 9mbps, once back on the wifi backhaul went back to 36, only differnence was the disc went from a "Good" to "Excellent" connection

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Jim-lad
Expert
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Message 768 of 1,165

Re: Whole Home WiFi firmware update v1.02.04 build10


@Steve59wrote:

Interesting experiment which I performed twice as I was surprised by the result, on both occassions....

I connected 1 of my 4 discs to ethernet via a Powerline Plug and ran a speedtest, it dropped from 36mbps (what my Broadband is) to 9mbps, once back on the wifi backhaul went back to 36, only differnence was the disc went from a "Good" to "Excellent" connection


Are you sure both readings were in Mbps and one was not MBs.  Very easy to confuse the two as some sites use one whereas others can often use the other.  It sounds odd especially as the connection status went to excellent.  Where were you running the speed test from.

Please write down your exact procedure as the speeds I am getting suggest this should be the other way around.

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Benjaminleo
Aspiring Contributor
387 Views
Message 769 of 1,165

Re: Whole Home WiFi firmware update v1.02.04 build10

OK lets properly discuss this then:

"Firstly nobody said that with mesh you need to re-authenticate. What was said is that BT Whole Home is a mesh networking system as it manages intelligent hand-off so that re-authentication is not necessary. It also hands off due to signal strength or congestion. Basic APs (and WiFi extenders) require re-authenication."

I was unaware until now (having done further research) that BT Whole Home supports 802.11r which is what is also in the Ubiquiti discs and allows more seamless handover. So fair point.

"Secondly all APs (mesh or not) require backhaul connectivity. With mesh systems it is generally possible to use WiFi or Ethernet backhaul. This is no different with BTWH. Nobody has said you must use Ethernet backhaul (it's your choice) but it can be beneficial because it avoids consumption of available wifi bandwidth for backhaul, it allows discs to be placed so that they don't need to see each other over wireless even though a client device can be at a midpoint between 2 discs and still get seamless handoff, and it can be very useful if there is interference in the radio spectrum which causes disruption to the backhaul communications."

OK but this is where my issue lies, you CAN use ethernet backhaul, but the reason a large number of people bought this system is because they are simply unable to do that! Whether it be because they are renting, or because they cant afford powerline adapters or to run cables through the house. I'll accept that its a workaround, and if you can do it, great. but its NOT a 'fix'. I am aware that the discs communicating via wifi impacts performance but that's a trade I have to take because I am unable to run cables through the house, and powerline adapters performs dreadfully on our wiring.

Plus its important to note that this is the basis on which BT sell the equipment. Imagine if a car company touted how well their car drove off-road and that's the reason many people bought it. Then a year after releasing it issued a software update that made the engine cut out every time the car was driven off road. Many people wouldn't be happy. and telling people 'it works fine on the road' isn't a solution! I'm not saying it doesn't work well wired, I'm saying i shouldn't have to wire it! I didn't buy a system i needed to wire up, and that's not how it was advertised when I bought it!

"BTWH doesn't have a dedicated radio for backhaul therefore using WiFi is a compromise. There is no reason for people not to choose Homeplugs for backhaul, although there are lots of mixed opinions on their performance - I've never had a good experience. Wired gigabit ethernet will of course be better, but in most cases is not really going to gain much."

All true and all fair points, but ive stated above why this isn't a 'fix'

"Often people forget that their limiting factor is the internet bandwidth into their homes and chase utopia when actually they only need a maximum of 80mbps through their lan, but for other users who have internal to internal traffic it can be a different story. It's horses for courses, but don't criticise other people for differing decisions to your own which are equally valid."

OK my issue is that people seem to be offering this as a fix, and as i have previously stated its not. this is not how the kit was sold. It also annoys me that I could have spent money on some decent kit (like the Unifi APs) for pretty much the same cost if i were planning to wire up the house and use an ethernet backhaul rather than a wifi one. If people are happy using Whole Home wired that's fine for them, but it was sold as being a good system primarily for a house that isn't wired in any way. and it was working perfectly until the latest update.

"Finally you are wrong regarding enterprise deployment of WiFi. I recently oversaw the roll out of over 1700 wireless APs into a UK NHS hospital. Every single AP was wired for Ethernet backhaul - the reason was to ensure we had the bandwidth required (you'll soon fill your network if you start daisy chaining APs), avoid impact by interference (try deploying wifi near MRI scanners!!) and to avoid needing to ensure every AP had to see its neighbours as radio power needs to be throttled down to manage overlap with the limited spectrum allocations (especially on 2.4Ghz). This is the same in offices, hotels and many other installations I've been involved in. Wireless backhaul is used on some external implementations in my experience, but remember that the wireless spectrum is a shared medium which quickly becomes congested and is easily disrupted therefore many designers prefer the guaranteed performance of wires (or optical)."

I never said AP's connected with a wireless backhaul! I know very well that all APs in a corporate setting need to be wired and didnt say otherwise! Yes Wireless backhaul would be silly. My point was that moving between APs (even basic APs and Wifi extenders) is for most purposes not really that much of an issue? like almost seamless? I will concede that now I know the Whole Home supports 802.11r and handovers between discs better than bog standard equipment this does make me understand the logic of using these wired, but again, this just simply isn't possible for a lot of people!
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JWinBirmingham
Beginner
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Message 770 of 1,165

Re: Whole Home WiFi firmware update v1.02.04 build10

The irony isn’t lost on me that today Marc Allera announced his “Best Connected Plan” where BT Group state “Change is necessary to give our customers what matters most to them: the best connections, the best service and the best experiences.”. The way that the latest (March) BT WholeHone firmware deployment was tested, deployed & supported demonstrates unambiguously the worst connections, the worst service and the worst experiences.