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ChrisFWood
Aspiring Contributor
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Message 21 of 29

Re: BT Home Hub 5 on Master Socket - Can it be moved?

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With the engineer install you get upto a 30m data extension included so make then put it in, I intend to get that done on my install, next week (I have a backup I can install CAT6).

The phone extension will propably be parallel wires not twisted pairs and even if it is twisted pair it will be CAT3 designed to handle voice not the higher frequencies used for vDSL.

 

The point of twisted pair is to prevent interfence thus running phone on 2 pairs and data on another pair if the CAT is designed for the frequencies involved there will be no problem. 

But then there is no point you are missing the point of the filters it is a band pass filter on the voice side only to keep your phone etc from putting noise on the line in the vDSL frequencies thus killing the data side.  So you could put a filter at the other end and use the single pair for both.

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het_uk
Aspiring Expert
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Message 22 of 29

Re: BT Home Hub 5 on Master Socket - Can it be moved?

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@ChrisFWood wrote:


With the engineer install you get upto a 30m data extension included so make then put it in, I intend to get that done on my install, next week (I have a backup I can install CAT6).

 

The phone extension will propably be parallel wires not twisted pairs and even if it is twisted pair it will be CAT3 designed to handle voice not the higher frequencies used for vDSL.

 

The point of twisted pair is to prevent interfence thus running phone on 2 pairs and data on another pair if the CAT is designed for the frequencies involved there will be no problem. 

But then there is no point you are missing the point of the filters it is a band pass filter on the voice side only to keep your phone etc from putting noise on the line in the vDSL frequencies thus killing the data side.  So you could put a filter at the other end and use the single pair for both.


How do you think the VDSL service gets to your house?  The voice and VDSL service arrive on the same 2 wires then they are split at the faceplate.  You can easily extend the voice and VDSL service using a standard Cat3, although the recommended distance to extend is no more than around 30m to ensure minimal loss.  You also need to ensure that you don't filter at the beginning of the extension unless you intend to use two extensions (one for each service).

The data extension is to allow you to separate the Openreach modem and HomeHub.  The connection between the modem and HH is Ethernet so twisted-pair is required rather than Cat3 to achieve this.  However with the HH5 the modem is integrated though so you need to extend the Cat3, not the data link, so using a standard telephone extension is perfectly acceptable providing it's not too long.  You would still lose signal over a Cat5 or Cat6 if you're extending the Cat3 anyway, so using twisted-pair would only help to marginally minimize the effects of loss.

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Distinguished Guru
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Message 23 of 29

Re: BT Home Hub 5 on Master Socket - Can it be moved?

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A question from someone certainly non-expert in this area. 

 

Let's assume the OP left the newly installed master socket in place (with built-in filter/splitter) and tried to use the existing phone extension as a means of relocating the HH5. This is what I originally suggested might be an option. This would still be a pre-modem extension.

Let's also assume that the phone extension cable has two pairs of wires (possibly twisted or possibly not) but is not specifically designed for post-modem ethernet form transmissions (so not cat5, cat5e or cat6).

 

It seems to me that the OP could use just one pair of wires for the pre-modem data extension using the internal connectors I indicated on the master socket. As long as the cable is not too long and of a reasonable quality I assume this would work with just a slight drop in VDSL sync speed at the modem in the HH5?

 

It also seems to me that the OP could use the other spare pair of wires in the same cable as a voice extension so they could still also have a phone near to the HH5 if they wanted to. Again this could use the internal connectors in the master socket.

 

To me this seems like a simple solution for the OP which would require no extra cabling and yet still keep the new master socket installed by OpenReach in place.

 

My question is this. If these two separate 'pre-modem data' and 'voice' circuits are running down the same cable but on two separate pairs of wires would this cause any interference or would this work fine?

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ubysam
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Message 24 of 29

Re: BT Home Hub 5 on Master Socket - Can it be moved?

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@umpire 

 

the interstitial/vdsl plate or ssfp is a glorified microfilter.

 

the idea behind it is it slots into place at the NTE and filters adsl/vdsl at the 'demarcation point' blocks the adsl/vdsl signal from going any further into the properties possibly old/wonky telco wiring hence the top rj11 socket and AB internal IDC (which only really negates and rj 11 plug (you can krone it inside 1 - for neatness and 2 - cable is punched down, almost like connecting it to the AB on the back of the master rather than putting an rj11 plug into a socket)

 

one thing to note though is that the AB IDC's and RJ11 socket are not DATA only - they are just unfiltered and if you connected a phone to either - it would work. 

 

 

 

 

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ubysam
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Message 25 of 29

Re: BT Home Hub 5 on Master Socket - Can it be moved?

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Just to add and hopefully answer the OP,

It's more than likely you had a sub-contractor who gets paid per job so so to get 'in and out' stuck and filterd faceplate on the master and told you the hub needed to go there - as others have posted a data extension should have been offered.

If you only have one extension they might have cheated a little and bypassed the old master and turned your extension into the master or if you had a phone in the hall he might have cheated further and 'backwired' after doing the above, both of which are frowned upon but 'can' work fine.

you ideally need a data extension or if you can manage it have the master completely relocated to the back of the house

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Message 26 of 29

Re: BT Home Hub 5 on Master Socket - Can it be moved?

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@ubysam wrote:
Just to add and hopefully answer the OP,

It's more than likely you had a sub-contractor who gets paid per job so so to get 'in and out' stuck and filterd faceplate on the master and told you the hub needed to go there - as others have posted a data extension should have been offered.

If you only have one extension they might have cheated a little and bypassed the old master and turned your extension into the master or if you had a phone in the hall he might have cheated further and 'backwired' after doing the above, both of which are frowned upon but 'can' work fine.

you ideally need a data extension or if you can manage it have the master completely relocated to the back of the house


 

Yes, the problem the OP has is that through no fault of their own they weren't there at the time of the engineer's visit. So they are now in the situation where the master socket wasn't relocated and no data extension was fitted. BT would probably charge £130+ for another engineer visit. Hence their question about is there anything they can do now that won't cost a lot of money?

 

I think we all agree that any of this DIY type stuff is not ideal, but if as you say it is "frowned upon but 'can' work fine" then I suppose they have little to lose by experimenting? The alternative is probably to pay BT a lot more money.

 

Out of interest last year I got quoted a price of £205 to move a master socket by a BT adviser. I read elsewhere that it was £130 plus £75 per extension, which might explain the £205 figure. I actually got the Infinity installer to do it for free, though it did mean making use of some existing old home phone wiring (so maybe not perfect). I didn't bother asking for the back-wiring as I was happy to lose one voice extension. It works fine for Infinity 1 speeds for me for now.

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Distinguished Guru
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Message 27 of 29

Re: BT Home Hub 5 on Master Socket - Can it be moved?

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@umpire wrote:
I actually got the Infinity installer to do it for free, though it did mean making use of some existing old home phone wiring (so maybe not perfect).  

... and the reason they didn't install brand new cabling was because it was going from the 2nd floor to the 1st floor and was too high up for a normal ladders job. The alternative was to order the official cherry picker and postpone everything, and that might have also incurred extra charges (ouch!). For me the 'installer' was actually two official OpenReach engineers, a trainee and a very experienced supervisor making sure the trainee did things correctly.

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het_uk
Aspiring Expert
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Message 28 of 29

Re: BT Home Hub 5 on Master Socket - Can it be moved?

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@umpire - You are absolutely correct, you could use two pairs to do this using the existing wiring.  I wouldn't expect to see any crosstalk issues though as long as the cabling is good and the terminations are proper.  The signal would inevitably degrade due to the extra length of the cable though.

 

The only reason I suggested relocating the new Openreach socket is to provide the correct socket for the HH where it is required without needing to purchase an additional faceplate or adapter.  If you do simply extend the wire from the new Openreach faceplate you would need to provide an RJ11 socket for the VDSL connection at the end where the HH will sit.  As well as that it doesn't sound like a phone is required at the original socket anyway, so you kill two birds with one stone by relocating the new faceplate.

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mikeandbryonyb
Beginner
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Message 29 of 29

Re: BT Home Hub 5 on Master Socket - Can it be moved?

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Hi Everyone, thanks for the help and support over the past few weeks.  I tried doing my own data extension using the original cabling, but it didn't work, partly because I think the line had a number of connections and a spur on it. So I just wanted to say that we had a BT Engineer back yesterday.  After a couple of phone calls to India we successfully raised a complaint against the original installation.  They fitted a data extension into the office at the back via a 30m cable round the outside of the house.  Nice and neat and very fast internet speeds now.  Satisfied at last and no extra charge from BT.

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