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Distinguished Sage
Distinguished Sage
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Message 11 of 43

Re: Phone calls regarding Internet being "compromised"


@watfordih wrote:

Well said Steve.

Caller Id is not free. It is what is usually called bundled or standard. I.e. all subscribers pay for it as part af their service fee - whether or not they use it.

Also, the fact that it is bundled (standard/free?) does not justify a deficient product/service.

If your new car brakes failed, the manufacturer would not dream of saying it's OK because they were free!


Caller display can only show you the number that the call is purporting to be from. It does not tell you who is calling or that the number shown is fake simply because it does not and can not know that it is fake.

Your analogy of a cars brake system failing is pretty poor and does not come close to what is happening with spoofed phone numbers.

A better analogy might be if a car which was displaying false number plates, which for all viewing them look genuine, crashed into your car and drove off your insurance company would be unable to trace the offending car in order to make the owner pay the damage bill because the displayed number does not lead them back to the offending owner.

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Distinguished Guru
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Message 12 of 43

Re: Phone calls regarding Internet being "compromised"


@Stevek1311wrote:

@Keith_Beddoewrote:
So BT is charging money for a Caller ID service that is not fit for purpose and is knowingly allowing fraudsters to send fake Caller IDs to my house

Yes I will be contacting OfCom and Trading Standards


Caller ID is free with BT Retail.


But you have to pay for BT Retail so it is part of the advertised service I and others pay for. 

It's false advertising and by deceiving customers into believing those calls are from genuine London landline numbers they are actively helping scammers to access the vulnerable.  If I were BT right now I would take a long look at their legal liabilites for their part in any scams enabled by their defective caller ID system

 


There is some merit in your argument, however the fact that the numbers being shown are spoofed might well be better than not having caller ID at all.

If BT need to look at it, as well as other companies of course, and they all decide that they can't provide the caller ID service - then to me that would be worse. That would stop all the known blocking systems and phones you can get, effectively causing a lot more grief for a lot more people.

BT are not part of the scams, neither are other phone companies around the world.

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Stevek1311
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Message 13 of 43

Re: Phone calls regarding Internet being "compromised"


@Andy_Nwrote:

@Stevek1311wrote:

@Keith_Beddoewrote:
So BT is charging money for a Caller ID service that is not fit for purpose and is knowingly allowing fraudsters to send fake Caller IDs to my house

Yes I will be contacting OfCom and Trading Standards


Caller ID is free with BT Retail.


But you have to pay for BT Retail so it is part of the advertised service I and others pay for. 

It's false advertising and by deceiving customers into believing those calls are from genuine London landline numbers they are actively helping scammers to access the vulnerable.  If I were BT right now I would take a long look at their legal liabilites for their part in any scams enabled by their defective caller ID system

 


There is some merit in your argument, however the fact that the numbers being shown are spoofed might well be better than not having caller ID at all.

If BT need to look at it, as well as other companies of course, and they all decide that they can't provide the caller ID service - then to me that would be worse. That would stop all the known blocking systems and phones you can get, effectively causing a lot more grief for a lot more people.

BT are not part of the scams, neither are other phone companies around the world.


The BT Caller ID service is unambiguous in its claims and unambiguously wrong

"What is Caller Display?

Caller Display shows you the number of the person calling,"

http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/8502/~/all-about-caller-display

Statistically somewhere today a little old lady got scammed because she saw a call with a London phone number and taking BT at their word, assumed it was a valid number

BT should be adding the words "unless the number has been spoofed" to that description and using forensics to cut off the IP addresses of the sources of these spoofed caller IDs.  If that means the whole Indian subcontinent is cut off until more precise forensics refine the offending places then so be it

Meantime BT are morally and quite possibly legally responsible for some of that little old lady's losses

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Distinguished Sage
Distinguished Sage
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Message 14 of 43

Re: Phone calls regarding Internet being "compromised"


@Stevek1311 wrote:


 


The BT Caller ID service in its claims and unambiguously wrong

"What is Caller Display?

Caller Display shows you the number of the person calling,"

http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/8502/~/all-about-caller-display

Statistically somewhere today a little old lady got scammed because she saw a call with a London phone number and taking BT at their word, assumed it was a valid number

BT should be adding the words "unless the number has been spoofed" to that description and using forensics to cut off the IP addresses of the sources of these spoofed caller IDs.  If that means the whole Indian subcontinent is cut off until more precise forensics refine the offending places then so be it

Meantime BT are morally and quite possibly legally responsible for some of that little old lady's losses


Is that little old lady a BT customer and does she have caller display activated with a phone to display it. I fail to see why a displayed number from London would make her more or less vulnerable to a scam phone call.

Going by your logic if somebody is killed by a motor car the car manufacturer is "morally and quite possibly legally responsible" for the death!

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Distinguished Guru
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Message 15 of 43

Re: Phone calls regarding Internet being "compromised"


@Stevek1311wrote:

The BT Caller ID service is unambiguous in its claims and unambiguously wrong

"What is Caller Display?

Caller Display shows you the number of the person calling,"

http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/8502/~/all-about-caller-display

Statistically somewhere today a little old lady got scammed because she saw a call with a London phone number and taking BT at their word, assumed it was a valid number

BT should be adding the words "unless the number has been spoofed" to that description and using forensics to cut off the IP addresses of the sources of these spoofed caller IDs.  If that means the whole Indian subcontinent is cut off until more precise forensics refine the offending places then so be it

Meantime BT are morally and quite possibly legally responsible for some of that little old lady's losses


I agree - the wording is not correct in many cases these days with spoofing, and something needs to be amended.

Not everyone is in London, the amount of spoofed calls are vast and with invalid ranges as well as dialling codes showing for all parts of the Country. I agree with gg30340 in that people can be scammed "from" any spoofed number. I also can't see why, in your example, being in London and receiving a scammer who sets a (possible) London calling number would make it more probable to be scammed.

It is possible some people would believe that BT are calling from their own town/city, but unfortunately those poor folk would be scammed no matter what number is displayed.

If it really was that easy to trace the scammers - who will almost certainly be using VPNs, hacked credit cards to pay for it and all sorts of obfuscating techniques - then the scammers would be found. Again I repeat, it's a worldwide issue and I can't believe the likes of AT&T and Comcast are simply sitting there doing nothing.

Not sure why you would call out India, the scammers could be anywhere and using any VoIP systems. I've said elsewhere it's the interconnect with VoIP systems that need to be (and probably are being) investigated. The issue is that more and more companies are going down that route. Indeed BT have announced that by 2025 their systems will be VoIP (good luck with that ...). So therefore should all the interconnects be cut off? which would include the likes of Skype. As a private company BT could do that, but there would be masses of consequences - perhaps legal etc.

Ofcom decide the rules, so that would relate to all the phone companies in the UK being liable to the losses you mention.

 

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Stevek1311
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Message 16 of 43

Re: Phone calls regarding Internet being "compromised"


@gg30340wrote:

@Stevek1311wrote:


 


The BT Caller ID service in its claims and unambiguously wrong

"What is Caller Display?

Caller Display shows you the number of the person calling,"

http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/8502/~/all-about-caller-display

Statistically somewhere today a little old lady got scammed because she saw a call with a London phone number and taking BT at their word, assumed it was a valid number

BT should be adding the words "unless the number has been spoofed" to that description and using forensics to cut off the IP addresses of the sources of these spoofed caller IDs.  If that means the whole Indian subcontinent is cut off until more precise forensics refine the offending places then so be it

Meantime BT are morally and quite possibly legally responsible for some of that little old lady's losses


Is that little old lady a BT customer and does she have caller display activated with a phone to display it. I fail to see why a displayed number from London would make her more or less vulnerable to a scam phone call.

Going by your logic if somebody is killed by a motor car the car manufacturer is "morally and quite possibly legally responsible" for the death!


poor analogy.  This is the equivalent of selling people locks and not telling them you've allowed any Tom, **bleep** or Harry to have the ability to make duplicate keys

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Distinguished Sage
Distinguished Sage
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Message 17 of 43

Re: Phone calls regarding Internet being "compromised"

Nowhere does it say that it will stop scammers from calling you.

All it says is that it allows you to see the number and you decide whether to answer it or not. It is up to the individual to be aware of how the deal with people on the phone just as it is if somebody called at their house door and tried to sell them something. 

Shops sell locks and don't tell you that they can be picked or the door forced open even if the door is locked!

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watfordih
Aspiring Contributor
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Message 18 of 43

Re: Phone calls regarding Internet being "compromised"

gg30340 says:-

"........ it allows you to see the number and you decide whether to answer it or not. It is up to the individual to be aware of how the deal with people on the phone ...........". 

I guess that means "Caveat Emptor". BT provides a crucial national service - especially for little old ladies so Caveat Emptor should not be in it's vocabulary.

gg30340 also says:-

"Shops sell locks and don't tell you that they can be picked or the door forced open even if the door is locked!"

Locksmiths do not need to tell you their locks can be forced or picked . Why? Simples, because even (most) little old ladies  know they can be. 

However, most phone users who use Caller Id (especially little old ladies) do not realise that the Caller Id can be falsified by callers. This means they assume that callers can be traced - by the police if necessary.

However,

On a more positive note, a technical question - If BT cannot (or are not inclined to) block spoofed number calls - even from their own network, would it be possible for them to detect a spoofed number call and indicate in some way that the Caller Id is or may be false?

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Distinguished Sage
Distinguished Sage
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Message 19 of 43

Re: Phone calls regarding Internet being "compromised"

If we are basing things on assumptions now, lets assume that most little old ladies don't know that locks can be picked or forced open and that those using caller ID do know that the numbers can be spoofed and that they can not be traced by the police if necessary.

People need to take responsibility for their own safety/security and don't forget, it is the scammers that are at fault here not BT or the other telephone companies.

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Distinguished Guru
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Message 20 of 43

Re: Phone calls regarding Internet being "compromised"


@watfordihwrote:

However, most phone users who use Caller Id (especially little old ladies) do not realise that the Caller Id can be falsified by callers. This means they assume that callers can be traced - by the police if necessary.

However,

On a more positive note, a technical question - If BT cannot (or are not inclined to) block spoofed number calls - even from their own network, would it be possible for them to detect a spoofed number call and indicate in some way that the Caller Id is or may be false?


As I have said before, what about those people that don't have caller display? They can easily believe the caller is valid and will not know what number is calling. Having caller display is surely better than not.

The police can't trace calls, that would be down to the network provider (with a police request or something like that).

Again as I've said elsewhere, detecting a spoofed number by the network before a call is answered would significantly increase the overheads in the call process. The exchanges have a finite level of power and throughput, adding a potentially huge extra check on every single call at present would simply not be viable. Not all spoofed numbers are invalid, though typically they are in spare ranges.

In my view, if technically possible, any checking should be done at the interconnect with the VoIP systems before the calls reach the PSTN. However many companies are moving to VoIP systems (for example Jersey Telecom).

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