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Household-X
Beginner
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Message 1 of 15

Help needed with phone sockets and connecting to BT.

Hi, so we were an IPstream customer with TalkTalk and the broadband speeds at peak times were like being back on ISDN or dial-up. So naturally enough we complained and having done all the diags they sent an engineer who concluded that there was a physical fault on the line and that BT/Openreach would need to sort it out. He told us to wait for a visit, and so we waited but to no avail.

 

Eventually TalkTalk told us that they wouldn't be able to supply any better speeds than the ones we were getting. We pointed out that the neighbours were all getting around 7Mbps at their master sockets and mostly we were getting less than 1Mbps. They said that was because our neighbours weren't TalkTalk customers, and that if we wanted we could leave without any contractual penalties. This is what we've done, and so we're due to switch over to BT in a couple of weeks. TalkTalk couldn't address the issue of why their engineer had concluded there was a fault on the line, and put it all down to us being IPStream customers, but at the time of his visit the engineer had been pretty adamant that we should be seeing better speeds than the ones we were getting.

 

Because of this before connecting up to the BT network we want to rule out the possibility that there's a problem with our internal wiring. The TalkTalk engineer didn't seem to inspect it too closely. I'm hoping that somebody out there can tell us whether or not the following setup is pants, and if it is what can be done about it.

 

The line that enters the house from the road is the grey line entering the old GPO junction box in this picture.

 

gpo box.jpg

 

The white line exits the box and runs down to what I presume is the BT master socket

 

Telecom.jpg

 

Another line (different type of cable) exits this socket and runs to a socket in the kitchen;

 

ext 1.jpg

 

Then the line exits that socket and runs to a socket in the loft.

 

ext 2.jpg

 

 

Presumably the wiring as far as the junction box is the responsibility of the telecoms provider, but I'm wondering who is responsible for the wiring up to the master socket? Also the British Telecom socket seems pretty old, when I try to identify it using the BT phone socket identification guide that type of socket doesn't appear to exist, should it be replaced, and if so by who? Also can the wiring exiting that socket and running to the extensions in the kitchen and the loft adversely affect the ADSL signal at the master socket? Thanks for any advice or assistance anybody can give us on this matter.

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Distinguished Sage
Distinguished Sage
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Message 2 of 15

Re: Help needed with phone sockets and connecting to BT.

it looks from first pic that there are 2 grey wires entering from bottom of junction box.  if feed from outside would only expect 1

 

if your phone is working ok then openreach won't replace anything on the motto - if it is not broken then don't fix it

 

you could check for the bellwire on terminal 3 in all sockets and if found remove it 

bellwire removal



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Household-X
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Message 3 of 15

Re: Help needed with phone sockets and connecting to BT.

 


imjolly wrote:


it looks from first pic that there are 2 grey wires entering from bottom of junction box.  if feed from outside would only expect 1

Hi, thanks for your reply, the grey line with the double wire is definitely the one coming from outside.
two wire.jpg
gpo connect.jpg
I've no idea how old the phone line is but I'm assuming that BT/Openreach are maybe only responsible for the wiring as far as the old GPO junction box? and that back in the day whoever owned the house wired all subsequent sockets and so it's OK to remove them without incurring the wrath of BT?
Ideally we'd like an NTE5 socket with an ADSL faceplate filter, but don't know if we should mess with the GPO junction box or even if the GPO junction box should still be there. Do you know if the line from outside is non standard is there going to be problems hooking the connection up to an NTE5 socket?

 

 

 

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Distinguished Sage
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Message 4 of 15

Re: Help needed with phone sockets and connecting to BT.

looks like copper cored bellwire to junction box.  the junction box is still used and is where outside dropwire joins internal cabling.  openreach responsibilty goes as far as the master socket which will be first socket after junction box.  any sockets after this are extensions and responsibility of home owner



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Household-X
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Message 5 of 15

Re: Help needed with phone sockets and connecting to BT.

Hi, thanks for your help, there's just two wires coming out of the junction box, a blue one and an orange one. I've been reading up on the link you gave about removing bellwire and I think I'm just going to disconnect the extension altogether and see if that improves anything. Thanks again for the info.

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lines_man
Aspiring Expert
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Message 6 of 15

Re: Help needed with phone sockets and connecting to BT.

That grey wire going to into the BT52a (GPO) is a D/W6..... This is an untwisted steel, coated in copper pair....

It will affect the AC Balance, also it will be at least 40 years old so will have just about had its day.....

Ideally you would need Openreach to replace it with a D/W11, which is 0.5 twisted copper.....
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iniltous
Recognised Expert
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Message 7 of 15

Re: Help needed with phone sockets and connecting to BT.

Your wiring is probably the reason why your speed is poor, but it may not be faulty in the accepted sense, just not optimised for broadband speed ..reporting your line faulty could result in your provider (talk talk) sending out Openreach, and OR charging your provider for a visit when there isn't a problem on what OR are responsible for, and TT would recoup this charge by charging you.
If TT have already sent someone out , and presumably this wasn't an OR employee, ( cube engineer ? ) these people are supposed to make your internal wiring broadband friendly, the grey area is that they shouldn't touch what belongs to OR, just what belongs to you, if this person said there was a problem externally ( on what OR are responsible for) , did this result in TT reporting the line faulty to Openreach ?
OR are responsible for the line upto the master socket, which is probably the socket in the second photo, but it isn't a NTE5 type socket, so the internal wiring from it to subsequent 'extension' sockets isn't easily disconnected , like it would be with a NTE5, but just because it's old it doesn't mean you can get it upgraded for free, if it ain't broken OR can charge for a visit, slow broadband isn't always OR's problem, internal wiring and extension sockets are not OR responsibility, even if 'BT' originally installed them
If you open up the sockets you only need 2 wires ( not 3 ) terminated on position 2 and 5 , if any of the sockets have a wires terminated on posn 3, you can remove that wire, at all sockets , and your speed may improve, you also want your router via a filter plugged into your master socket ( if practical) , and if you don't really need extension sockets disconnect them completely but if you had a visit from a cube engineer they should have already explained this, especially if you paid TT for the visit
Search 'bell wire adsl problems' , plenty of info on line about this
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Household-X
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Message 8 of 15

Re: Help needed with phone sockets and connecting to BT.


@lines_man wrote:
That grey wire going to into the BT52a (GPO) is a D/W6..... This is an untwisted steel, coated in copper pair....

It will affect the AC Balance, also it will be at least 40 years old so will have just about had its day.....

Ideally you would need Openreach to replace it with a D/W11, which is 0.5 twisted copper.....

Hi, thanks very much for that information, it's great to know the names for things. I wonder how badly the AC Balance might be being affected by the D/W6 cable and the fact that the line from the BT52a to the phone socket isn't composed of twisted pairs but rather four single strands. Are these readings from the router any help diagnosing how flaky the wiring is? The first set is from the dumbed down TalkTalk interface and the second is from the actual D-Link setup pages.

ADSL (Sync) Summary
System uptime: 26d:20h:14m:38s
Modem ADSL (Sync) uptime: 0d:17h:47m:30s
Interleaving: Off
ADSL mode: G.DMT
ADSL setting: VPI: 0 VCI: 38
ADSL line speed (kbps): Up: 448 Down: 8128
Line attenuation (dB): Up: 12.0 Down: 19.5
SN margin (dB): Up: 22. Down: 8.5
Total errors seconds: 10794

Line State     up
Modulation     ITU G.992.1(G.DMT)
Annex Mode     ANNEX_A
      
              Downstream     Upstream
SNR Margin     8.5 dB     22.0 dB
Line Attenuation     19.5 dB     12.0 dB
Data Rate     8128 kbps     448 kbps
ES        10787                     7
SES     337                     0
UAS     1012                     1012
FEC     0                      0
CRC     359                       6

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Household-X
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Message 9 of 15

Re: Help needed with phone sockets and connecting to BT.


@iniltous wrote:

If TT have already sent someone out , and presumably this wasn't an OR employee, ( cube engineer ? ) these people are supposed to make your internal wiring broadband friendly, the grey area is that they shouldn't touch what belongs to OR, just what belongs to you, if this person said there was a problem externally ( on what OR are responsible for) , did this result in TT reporting the line faulty to Openreach ?
Well the BrightSparks engineer who came on behalf of TT phoned up TT in India and placed an order for an OR engineer and the people in India wanted to know what days we'd be available etc. But then nobody arrived and nobody called to say when any visit would be going ahead. When we called TT to see what the story was they'd apparently ditched the idea of sending an OR engineer and were blaming the slow speeds on it being a problem with their IPstream bandwidth.
OR are responsible for the line upto the master socket, which is probably the socket in the second photo, but it isn't a NTE5 type socket, so the internal wiring from it to subsequent 'extension' sockets isn't easily disconnected , like it would be with a NTE5, but just because it's old it doesn't mean you can get it upgraded for free, if it ain't broken OR can charge for a visit, slow broadband isn't always OR's problem, internal wiring and extension sockets are not OR responsibility, even if 'BT' originally installed them
Thanks for clarifying that for us. Really it's starting to look from what liesman says that the whole run from the house to the pole needs renewing in order to get the best speeds. The local exchange has never been upgraded to 21CN so even at full speed it's not great.

and if you don't really need extension sockets disconnect them completely but if you had a visit from a cube engineer they should have already explained this, especially if you paid TT for the visit

Search 'bell wire adsl problems' , plenty of info on line about this

 

 

 

Yeah after reading up on things I've removed the extensions from the system and there's been no evident improvement. I guess that leaves us with only the lines between the master socket and the road to blame, given that the neighbours on the same pole all have around 7-8Mbps at their master sockets. Looks like I'm going to be forking out some cash for Openreach to come and sort it out if they're willing. Thanks for your input and advice, I know alot more now than I did this time yesterday!

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Distinguished Sage
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Message 10 of 15

Re: Help needed with phone sockets and connecting to BT.

your last set of stats show you have max 8mb connection for your adslmax connection

 

run btspeedtester and when first test completes then run diagnostic test and post the results - it may be your profile is low

 

 

btspeedtester



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