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Expert
FloFosterJenkins
Posts: 839
Registered: ‎11-10-2010
0

Re: Emails silently go missing if forwarded to BT mail


Galahad wrote:
.....

I have had a talk21 email account for many years without any problems receiving forwarded email.  I have my own domain and I give out the email address from that domain but I don't want to manage mails on that domain - I've been using my talk21 account for that.  I have set up the email forwarding to send any mails to the domain on to my talk21 email address.  This way, if I change domain or email address I don't have to ask anybody to update their email address for me.

 ......


This is just the scenario I am considering.

 

We need a BT statement on this please - not a resolution on an individual case-by-case basis.

Sage
Keith_Beddoe
Posts: 23,054
Registered: ‎27-01-2010
0

Re: Emails silently go missing if forwarded to BT mail

Hopefully a moderator will be able to investigate the failures, which are due to 500 SPF CHECK FAILED, which is at the root of this problem.

 

There are some useful help pages here, for BT Broadband customers only, on my personal website.

BT Broadband customers - help with broadband, WiFi, networking, e-mail and phones.

Expert
Oliver341
Posts: 675
Registered: ‎03-03-2010

Re: Emails silently go missing if forwarded to BT mail

It might help for me to give an example. Since someone mentioned Amazon, let's take that.

 

This is Amazon's SPF policy:

 

v=spf1 include:spf1.amazon.com include:spf2.amazon.com include:amazonses.com -all

 

In other words, only the servers listed are allowed to send mail on behalf of Amazon.com - all other servers attempting to send mail on behalf of Amazon.com should have their email rejected (indicated by -all at the end).

 

This is an Amazon policy decision. Since mail forwarding results in a server attempting to send (forward) mail on behalf of Amazon.com - the mail is rejected as per Amazon's policy.

 

Who is to "blame"? If anyone, it's Amazon, as they set the policy. But since such companies need to protect against email spoofing, you cannot really "blame" them.

 

So as you can see, it's really not as simple as saying "my mail forwarding stopped working, someone broke something!". Critical Path are simply obeying Amazon's wishes under the rules set out by SPF.

Sage
Keith_Beddoe
Posts: 23,054
Registered: ‎27-01-2010
0

Re: Emails silently go missing if forwarded to BT mail

Perhaps the answer is simply not to forward mail via another service. In the case of Amazon, make sure that their e-mails go directly into your btinternet.co e-mail address. It going to be the most secure

 

This can be done by simply changing your account settings on Amazon.

 

What Amazon have decided, seems very sensible to me, as I am sure most of us have received spoofed e-mails.

 

 

There are some useful help pages here, for BT Broadband customers only, on my personal website.

BT Broadband customers - help with broadband, WiFi, networking, e-mail and phones.

Aspiring Contributor
Castweb
Posts: 11
Registered: ‎28-10-2013
0

Re: Emails silently go missing if forwarded to BT mail

It is more complicated than that. Some email hosts, and I specifically mention Hotmail and MS mail in this regard, will often reject mail sent from servers without SPF validation as spam. SPF is part of their spam scoring system, and its absence can cause mail to Hotmail addresses to be dropped into the wastebin with neither notification to the sender nor the recipient. We have had endless trouble with this over the years. Finally we gave in and implemented SPF because of this.

 

So you are damned if you do use SPF (which causes problems  forwarding) and damned if you don't (which causes problems with Hotmail etc).

 

Actually I don't think SPF is necessarily fatal to forwarding, if the SPF of the server you are forwarding through allows include of the original sending SPF. But this is introducing another layer of complexity, and most people will have no control of SPF for servers they are forwarding through.

Beginner
Galahad
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎02-11-2013
0

Re: Emails silently go missing if forwarded to BT mail

To complete my story - I've decided to not to wait in the hope that anything will change - at least in the short-term. When this started happening (or at least it became more obvious on Thursday) I thought it was a problem with my domain host and the forwarding by them. I'd had problems with them before and had been meaning to move to a new provider. But even after I'd done that the problem persisted which is how I ended up on this forum. So today I've added email to my hosting with my new provider (only £36 odd for three years!) and so now I won't forward to BT at all. It'll probably turn out for the best - I won't be adding advertising to my own emails in the future (of course BT won't do that either, I'm sure), I can keep my email and catch-all if I want and it all works nicely through Outlook via POP3 or IMAP. Perhaps this has done me a favour - I'd been meaning to move my host for ages and the new one I'm with appears to be much better (at least for someone with little experience of this side of IT!).
Aspiring Contributor
woodturner
Posts: 16
Registered: ‎04-08-2013
0

Re: BTinternet rejecting all our emails

I'm in a similar situation, all mails from my accounts on ****@****.co.uk have ceased to be delivered to any BT recipients, even my own BT account.

Been working fine for months/years now after some hassles associated with Yahoo a long time ago.

We have checked our domain account and BT is enabled.

obviously I can send from my  ***@btinternet.com

But this obviously leads to much confusion and rejected mails when replied to  mails mix and match sender and return address.

Aspiring Contributor
woodturner
Posts: 16
Registered: ‎04-08-2013
0

Re: BTinternet rejecting all our emails

Checked web site again and SPF in enabled.

 

I have Loged in to ****.co.uk and checked "Email Authentication" and SPF is enabled.

Aspiring Contributor
nik-halton
Posts: 20
Registered: ‎13-11-2012
0

Re: Emails silently go missing if forwarded to BT mail

[ Edited ]

Oliver341 wrote:

It might help for me to give an example. Since someone mentioned Amazon, let's take that.

 

This is Amazon's SPF policy:

 

v=spf1 include:spf1.amazon.com include:spf2.amazon.com include:amazonses.com -all

 

In other words, only the servers listed are allowed to send mail on behalf of Amazon.com - all other servers attempting to send mail on behalf of Amazon.com should have their email rejected (indicated by -all at the end).

 

This is an Amazon policy decision. Since mail forwarding results in a server attempting to send (forward) mail on behalf of Amazon.com - the mail is rejected as per Amazon's policy.

 

Who is to "blame"? If anyone, it's Amazon, as they set the policy. But since such companies need to protect against email spoofing, you cannot really "blame" them.

 

So as you can see, it's really not as simple as saying "my mail forwarding stopped working, someone broke something!". Critical Path are simply obeying Amazon's wishes under the rules set out by SPF.


No.

 

I have not asked my email provider to change its implementation of SPF.

 

My email provider has not advised me that it is changing its policy to the use of SPF. It has not obtained my consent to start blocking / not delivering Emails to me based on different policies.

 

Mail forwarding is used for a variety of legitimate reasons. My reasons for using it are legitimate. Again, nobody at BT has told me that there would be issues with me continuing to use it.

 

This is no different from BT suddenly imposing a usage cap on Emails without warning and leaving people confused why they're suddenly not receiving more than their limit of Emails each month. It is a degradation of service.

 

It has been clearly stated that mail forwarders are not always, or often, used by spammers. So if this is the reason for its use by CP, it feels like the wrong tool for the job now, irrespective of whatever SPF was originally designed to do.

 

I also doubt whether many senders - be they individuals or corporations - will have much knowledge of SPF or how their organisation/mail provider is using it. I'm sure some do, but if I went back, for example, to New Statesman and mentioned this to them, I doubt they would know what this was and how or why they should change it. Oliver341 can merrily quote the SPF policy of various senders, but that's not the same as saying they have done this intentionally, willingly and in full knowledge of the consequences.

 

Equally, individual correspondents at ISPs with -a settings for SPF would have no ability to change their settings.

 

BT's promise is to provide a consistent Email service during this migration from Yahoo to Critical Path. It is their responsibility to mitigate this risk for their customers. They've failed to do this.

 

If they believe they are providing an enhanced service through different use of SPF they should make people aware of the impact prior to the migration and give people the opportunity to opt out of it if, for example, they wish to continue to use mail forwarding.

 

I've seen no noticeable reduction in the level of spam I'm receiving but I have seen an impact to the Emails I wish to receive.

 

A formal response from BT is needed.

Aspiring Contributor
woodturner
Posts: 16
Registered: ‎04-08-2013
0

Re: BTinternet rejecting all our emails

BT does not recognise one SPF check address.

 

 

- These recipients of your message have been processed by the mail server:

spf-test@openspf.net; Failed; 5.1.1 (bad destination mailbox address)

 

    Remote MTA mailout02.controlledmail.com: SMTP diagnostic: 550 5.7.1 <spf-test@openspf.net>: Recipient address rejected: SPF Tests: Mail-From Result="none": Mail From="******@btinternet.com" HELO name="smtpout07.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk" HELO Result="none" Remote IP="65.20.0.127"