Why other providers not allowed in my area?

[bobhoskins321]

Hello everyone.

I wanted to share some facts about my situation, which sounds far from unique.

I will proceed by stating I fully understand that BT the ISP and OpenReach the infrastructure  are separate so where I mention BT I really do mean BT and not OpenReach. 

Here are the facts:

I moved into a new build property on the 4th of December 2020.
I was amongst the first 3 homes to be completed on a development that will in 4 years time have over 200.

The property has an ONT installed by OpenReach, which as of 19th of December 2020 was showing a solid green PON.

From that point I've been trying to contract a service provider. My next door neighbours on either side have existing BT contracts which are up and running. (One side has even upgraded to the 900Mb / 110Mb monster!)

I want to keep the facts rather than share my understanding of the inner workings.

Today, 13th of January 2020,  I've spoken on the phone to a number of ISPs with the following results on being able to contract them.

• BT - YES
• Sky - YES  (BT partnership)
• EE  - YES (BT partnership)
• Vodafone - NO (Not a BT partnership)
• TalkTalk - NO (Not a BT partnership)

I'm happy to share any further details, or call any other ISPs to continue testing.

And finally,

I want to try and do some good in reminding @j0hn83 about previous commitments, and encouraging him to step forward with any questions, or advice.

----- Here's what @j0hn83 has previously said -----

@j0hn83  on the 30th of September said on this thread. 

"I'm that confident in this that if anyone can provide me with a single postcode where BT is the ONLY provider available on the OpenReach network as part of an exclusive deal on a new build development then i will donate £100 to a charity of their choosing and will provide a screenshot of the donation here."

and then later the same day said:

"£1,000 to a charity of anyone's choice if they can name a single postcode where BT have exclusivity on a new build site. No?"

---------

John, my post code is SK9 3GG and my charity is LOROS. https://www.loros.co.uk 

Thank you

Bob.

Edited: to improve readability. 

[bkehoe]

Sorry but you can order from BT, EE or Sky if I've read your post correctly? While EE is owned by BT, I'm not sure how you can associate Sky with BT?

I also chucked that postcode into Zens checker and they will provide service to at least the couple of property numbers I randomly picked.

[imjolly]

@bobhoskins321 

can you expand on your 'BT Partnership'

the Fibre line is provided by openreach not BT Retail - but you post you are aware of the difference in companies.  so if SKY provides FTTP and as @bkehoe posted ZEN will provide FTTP then your post is wrong and misleading

[j0hn83]

Lots of lols here...

I can categorically assure that you Sky DO NOT have a "BT Partnership".

Sky purchase GEA FTTP direct from OpenReach over their own NGA GEA Cablelink in the Head End.

BT don't have any "partnerships".

BT don't even buy FTTP from OpenReach.

BT buy FTTP from BT Wholesale.

EE buy FTTP from BT Wholesale.

BT Wholesale buy GEA FTTP from OpenReach over their own GEA cablelink and resell/wholesale it to EE and BT.

My offer still stands.

Anyone who can only buy FTTP from BT the ISP (not BT Wholesale, who wholesale to hundreds of ISP's) and can provide such a postcode I will donate £1,000 to a charity of their choice.

There is no such properties, which is why I made the offer.

[gg30340]

Does this mean that, to try and do some good, if bobhoskins321 turns out to be wrong he will donate £1,000 to a charity of j0hn83 choice or is he not that confident in what he posted.

[j0hn83]

"if he turns out to be wrong"

He is wrong.

Sky is a customer of OpenReach, not BT. That's  not a guess

EE is a customer of BT Wholesale, as is BT.

There's no question as to the above statement. It's a fact.

I'd happily encourage a donation from anyone proved wrong by this.

I'm pretty sure BT isn't even allowed to be a direct customer of OpenReach for NGA products.

The BT Group is highly regulated by OFCOM.

BT don't own a single GEA cablelink (the cable in the exchange that allows you to sell fibre services).

That would allow them to be a monopoly.

BT Wholesale own them all and they wholesale every 1 of them.

BT also don't own any ADSL DSLAM's or MSAN's. They are also owned by BT Wholesale.

The post above claims to understand the differences between BT and OpenReach, but clearly does not.

BT Wholesale wasn't even mentioned in their post.

Anyone who's wrong can donate to an MND charity please.

🙂

[bobhoskins321]

Hello folks, 

Thank you all for your quick responses.

I'll respond to each one in turn.

@bkehoe 
ZEN - Thanks, I'll give them a call to see if it will actually process. 
Anyone else I should be speaking with?

@imjolly 
My understanding is that BT, EE and Sky buy from BT wholesale, where as Vodafone and TalkTalk do not.  

However, I'm not certain on this....there are obviously lots of well documented partnerships between the various business groups.

My intention was to not be misleading or overstate the facts. 
Maybe somebody else can confirm if they all (and possibly Zen) buy from BT wholesale, or even where Vodafone and TalkTalk buy from.

@j0hn83 
Thank you for the detailed explanation, 

I think the alleged exclusivity is maybe BT Wholesale rather than BT. 
As above, I was under the impression Sky bought from BT Wholesale as well.

I believe I currently can only contract providers who buy from BT Wholesale.

@gg30340 
Certainly does not I'm far from expert on this, and just sharing my experiences. @j0hn83 was the chap with a pair who thrown down bounty. Does this mean you will also be throwing in £1,000?

All of this information is good and thank you.

But can anyone tell me why I currently can't contract Vodafone as they don'y have access to the site?

Thanks

Bob.

[garybs29]

---

@bobhoskins321wrote:

But can anyone tell me why I currently can't contract Vodafone as they don'y have access to the site?

---

That's their decision so you'll need to ask them

[j0hn83]

BT and EE use BT Wholesale.

Sky do not use BT Wholesale, anywhere.

They have their own backhaul across the country and purchase directly from OpenReach.

Vodafone are a little different from other providers.

They have made a deliberate decision to only sell OpenReach FTTP in a few specific cities.

This is because they have a wider deal selling CityFibre FTTP (sold as Vodafone GigaFast).

I was very specific in my previous post that was quoted.

I said there was nowhere that BT (the ISP) was the only provider.

I was specific that this was because BT buy from BT Wholesale.

If BT Wholesale is available then there are dozens (if not hundreds) of ISP's available.

Edit: Zen purchase from BT Wholesale, Talktalk Business and they also purchase directly from OpenReach.

In some areas Zen will have 1, 2 or 3 choices of backhaul.

They allow you to switch between these sometimes.

[bobhoskins321]

Hello folks,

Wow this a lively subject. 

@j0hn83 

" Sky is a customer of OpenReach, not BT. That's  not a guess

EE is a customer of BT Wholesale, as is BT.

There's no question as to the above statement. It's a fact."

-I take you at your word, and won't question that.

"The post above claims to understand the differences between BT and OpenReach, but clearly does not. BT Wholesale wasn't even mentioned in their post."

- I do understand BT & Open Reach, I don't understand BT Wholesale... just starting to learn unbundled and the ISPs buy it.

"Anyone who's wrong can donate to an MND charity please."

- Your the chap who's offered the bounty. I think offering a 'charitable FINE' against anyone who dare to challenge your wisdom won't lead us the best outcomes.

@garybs29 

" That's their decision so you'll need to ask them"

You know what, I did... and they said that they are blocked by BT (I don't know if they meant the ISP or wholesale) from selling on the site and that I would meed to talk to the building developer to try and get the block removed which would take 48 hours. (Strangely enough the developer doesn't really have a department that does that).

Maybe somebody should let Vodafone know that they are wrong and owe @j0hn83 charity a £1,000.

My closing thoughts on this one folks.
From trying to get this sorted over the last few weeks and seeing this same thing come up over and over again......

Trying to learn about how ISPs buy internet, the difference between BT Groups various enteritis and partnerships......

I hope nobody would disagree that,

This probably isn't the as good of a consumer experience as it should be.

Right I'm off to reluctantly contract £33/month for 150mb from Sky,
instead of £35 for 500mb from Vodafone.

My advice to the next person who stumbles across this thread after being frustrated they can't contract the ISP they would hope to...

Throw in the towel now, and stop wasting your own time.

Tim.