Overhead vs. Underground FTTP

[DWDKHN]

Hi - hoping for some advice please...  I ordered my upgrade from copper to full fibre today.

Currently, my BT connection is underground - the same for most of my neighbours - there are BT ducts in the pavement along my street.   The chap who took my upgrade order today said the installation would be overhead - there is a pole some way down the road.

Using the BT broadband checker it says "Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential OH Feed with no anticipated issues."

I don't want an overhead cable. Can anyone think of why, given that I have an underground connection now, I'd be given an overhead connection?

I have my installation date set on the 7th May - if they are planning an overhead cable, is it normal to have a conversation with the engineer on the day to see what underground options exist?

Many thanks.

[iniltous]

Are you sure it’s ducted underground service and not DIG ( direct in ground ) armoured cabling ?, approximately when were the properties built ? a guide is before 1991-92 it’s unlikely to be ducted , 1960’s through to the early 1990’s is primarily DIG .

It is unusual for DIG underground areas to be served with poles retrospectively, complaints from the residents the main reason why this is unusual and not done very often , DIG areas are very expensive to retro fit with ducts and as a rule are ‘on the back burner’ for making FTTP available, Openreach quite understandably look to get the most ‘bang for their buck’  , they do that by concentrating on overhead (poles) and already ducted areas, but if (for example) a small enclave of housing were built in the 1960s or 1970s and in effect bordered on one or more sides by older properties that have always had overhead service , it may be possible to serve some of those  later properties overhead from the existing poles even though their existing copper service is armoured underground cables  , and because there are no new poles ( or very few ones  ) mean no justification for locals to start complaining about the poles being a visual blight so  it’s easy and cheap availability for Openreach to ‘hit’ a  few additional properties that would have a very long wait otherwise if considered as regular DIG properties .

If Openreach have surveyed and said it’s overhead service then the installer on the day will be expecting to provide overhead service , and that’s why the ISP says overhead , you saying ducts exist ( if you are correct ) doesn’t help you on the day , if the allocated CBT for your address is at the top a pole , and you don’t accept that ,you may as well cancel .

If the addresses are mid 1990’s or later then there may have been an error in Openreach’s survey saying overhead , but in that case the installer likely would send  the job sent back so the records can be corrected from overhead to underground, before any new appointments can be made, but TBH ,  I doubt it’s going to be that .

[DWDKHN]

Many thanks for the reply.

When I had some water works done three years ago (new sewer connection in the street), I had to ask Openreach for their street plan so the contractor could check where to dig - it does show lines on the pavement with "Duct" in the legend.

There are a few rectangular concrete lid manholes on the street and you can see where they've dug a trench along the pavement to lay cables.  On the pavement outside my house, the trench branches and presumably provides the existing copper connection under the front garden - the cable comes out of the ground by the front wall of the house through a grey plastic conduit (and about as thick as a toilet roll holder).

The street that I live on has houses built in the 60's all served by underground cables.  The pole that I mention serves a few older (Georgian) properties a little further down the street - the pole is maybe 40 metres from my house.

If the CBT is at the top of the pole, is it at all likely that they'd be able to run a cable down the pole into the duct somehow?

[iniltous]

No they won’t do that , in DIG areas it’s common for there to be some distribution ducts and the occasional footway jointbox , but these are used to deliver the  ‘larger’ distribution cables (containing many ‘circuits’ ) to underground DP’s (distribution points ) from these DP’s are the individual feeds containing a single service into each property , these are not ducted cables but armoured cables direct in the ground , the designation is DIG or partial DIG .

TBH , as your property is 1960’s and the pole that exists is 40m away ( that’s well within the allowed span length from a pole ) ,I dare say that when the older properties were surveyed your property wasn’t in scope , but the surveyor saw an opportunity to ‘pick up’ a few extra addresses for no extra cost , so included your address and possibly a few others that can be ‘hit’ from the existing pole .

You can get a relatively odd situation where a buried armoured cable  to a house develops a fault , in those cases it’s normal when repairing the service to provide a duct and a regular copper cable in that duct section to replace the faulty armoured cable , so possibly that’s why a solitary duct exists to your address , but unfortunately it’s of no real use for FTTP as it doesn’t necessarily join up to any usable infrastructure (from an FTTP perspective) that is unless  the entire DIG area is to be retro fitted with underground service ( with the associated costs of more duct and possibly new footway boxes being installed )  , given the survey note is  ‘overhead no anticipated issues’ , that individual ducts  existence is of no use and just evidence of a previously faulty armoured cable .

I strongly suspect  your FTTP availability is a just a consequence of usable nearby overhead network not a bespoke designed new underground network, confirmation will be if you find some very near neighbours that don’t have a direct line of sight to the pole don’t show FTTP as available and only the addresses that can ‘see’ the pole directly do .

[DWDKHN]

Thank you.  When the engineer arrives, if they confirm that an overhead connection if my only option, can I refuse it and just stay with the copper connection?

There is Virgin Media underground here (there are small plastic VM covers outside each house in the pavement) - the BT chap said that they use Openreach infrastructure so BT could use those cables, but I'm not sure that's correct?

[iniltous]

You can refuse installation on the day , but why waste their time and your own , if overhead is unacceptable ( and that is all that’s on offer ) cancel now and stay as  you are on the copper pair service …

PIA ( physical infrastructure access )  the policy that allows others to use Openreach infrastructure is a ‘one way street’ in that it is not a reciprocal arrangement , Virgin and any other network operator that wants to can use Openreach infrastructure ( ducts , poles , joint boxes ) , but Openreach cannot use other operators infrastructure on the same basis , so the VM access points in the footpath are exclusively for their Virgins use .

In a way PIA actually disincentivises OR from putting new underground infrastructure in your ‘road’ , after all they could spend 10x thousands of ££’s doing this and the competition immediately turn up and use that infrastructure for very little cost (they pay a peppercorn rent for the space they occupy in OR infrastructure ) …in those circumstances if it were your business would you bother or defer that area and concentrate on areas that require no or very little expenditure ?

[WSH]

Excuse me for butting in @iniltous  but just to clarify a point for the OP:

@DWDKHN  “…BT could use those cables…”.  No.  They can share the duct, (which is what was meant by “infrastructure”), but they would have to put their own cable in, as it is a separate network.

[Jane2018]

It sounds like our road - there are definitely BT cover things on the ground with something under there but our telephone wires and broadband have always come to the house via the telephone poles. As you are offered FTTP I would just take it even if you do not like the idea of having to see the cable from pole to house. The wire is not particularly nasty to see I have never felt it ruined how our house looks. My view is that there is less chance of damage if up high too (my sibling has Virgin underground and twice in the last 10 years a work man at her or a near by property has cut her internet by accidentally cutting the underground cabling).

[DWDKHN]

Thank you.  I'm in a cul-de-sac with 11 houses - the Openreach map shows the duct all the way round the cut-de-sac with 8 joint boxes (rectangular grey manhole covers).  My existing copper feed comes out of the ground (and grey plastic tube) up to a small grey box on the wall.  Then two cables coming out of that - one for my feed and another for my neighbour's house.

The grey plastic tube - I don't know where that goes, but is it feasible that it runs to the duct that runs around the street?  If yes, couldn't they draw the fibre cable through that?  Or are you saying that if the connection box is at the top of a pole, then running the cable from the pole would only be done overhead?

Many thanks.

[iniltous]

As stated earlier , if its the survey information (that’s the ‘overhead , no anticipated issues’ ) note that is wrong and there is actually usable ducted infrastructure, something that generally wouldn’t exist in 1960’s built housing , it’s still the case that the fibre equipment your address would be allocated to is located at the pole top , and it’s somewhat optimistic to expect the tech ( overhead trained and expecting to erect an dropwire from a pole 40m away ) to try and establish if a ducted route somehow exists to the pole from your house  , then cable it (which is doubtful in itself , the tech unlikely to have a gas detector, duct rods , rope , sufficient ‘roadworks’ guarding etc ) ..IMHO at best the tech would offer to send the job back for a resurvey and possibly new underground infrastructure …..plus if the area were capable of service underground because of ducts and suitable joint boxes the appropriate network setup would contain underground CBT’s , so if these exist your address should already be assigned to an underground CBT , which means your address (unless the underground CBT that may or may not exist) and pole top CBT are on the same PON you connection would need re association to an underground CBT , so delay in the installation while that happens , but this is a very unlikely situation that an underground CBT exists but you are assigned to an overhead one .
TBH , I think you are overly optimistic to think they will dismiss just the ‘easy’ overhead method that is used in millions of cases ( presumably for nothing more that aesthetic reasons ) to explore another method underground that in all likelihood doesn’t even exist , they will just say if you don’t want overhead (and you know it’s going to be overhead ) call and cancel , it’s just the wasted time and effort you could easily avoid .