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S_G
Contributor
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Message 121 of 208

Re: DV and 3rd Party Router - Brick Wall Response

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@ChunkyTheCurmudgeon would you happen to have the Ofcom rules for use of proprietary hardware to hand? I tried to find anything but failed.

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ChunkyTheCurmudgeon
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Message 122 of 208

Re: DV and 3rd Party Router - Brick Wall Response

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Hi,  so sorry for the delayed reply.

I don't have the rules to hand, but picked up the information elsewhere, somewhere out in the aether.

For info, I did submit a complaint to Ofcom, but got a Dear John letter along the lines of "We only like to think about the big stuff, you're small fry. sort it with BT".

On the bright side, although BT technical told me I was going to get voice over fibre whether I wanted it or not they seem to have decided not to bother and thievery has remained the same.  Maybe them asking Openreach for an exemption on my behalf actually worked, but I'll never know.  Or maybe my copper phone line will disappear today.  Who knows?

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S_G
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Message 123 of 208

Re: DV and 3rd Party Router - Brick Wall Response

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No problem - thanks for the update.

I will try to look a bit more over the weekend and see if I can find it.

The whole idea is annoying - don't get me wrong - I think that IP based phone as such is not a bad thing. The handset I received actually seems quite decent too and I'd gladly use it. My problem is having to use the whole hub even though I need a DECT base only.

In theory I don't mind integrating the phone "base" with router, but with rather subprime device which BT hardware is I need to pass.

I don't know if it is just me, but I feel like the phone "gateway" should be actually the ONT rather than the ISP's proprietary routers/hubs. This set-up wouldn't be that different what having copper connection was.

There is one thing - if you have bigger property one base may not be enough indeed - in this case the mesh system would be so much more efficient. Plus if based off existing technology such as WiFi (6?) it could be actually quite interesting. So having a WiFi enabled handset rather than DECT one would already be a step forward.
Alternatively, BT could provide a DECT gateway that users could plug to their existing network setup.

BTW have you tried complaining to Communications Ombudsman? Maybe with reference to OFCOM's rule they would listen to us pheasants?
BTW 2 I read somewhere that OpenReach used to install ONTs that had phone jacks on them - maybe worth complaining and trying to force BT to install such ONT and configure it as Digital Voice gateway where you then plug own legacy phone(s)?

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ChunkyTheCurmudgeon
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Message 124 of 208

Re: Digital Voice with different Router

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Of course, all of this is easily solved if BT/Openreach could be bothered to make the effort, I just can't understand why they want to make everything so difficult.

THE SOLUTION - When Openreach pull in new fibre to a premises it is two core, of which only one is used for the ONT for the router.   All they need to do is provide a second ONT on the spare fibre (and of course, a second connection at the other end).  We could then have Digital Voice via a dumb SH2 and a proper fibre broadband with a decent third party router on the other.

Even better, they even have a 4 port ONT using a single fibre supposedly available this year https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/01/a-look-at-openreachs-future-4-port-ont-for-fttp-broadb...

At bulk purchase prices the extra cost of not making us all tie ourselves in knots would be peanuts.

 

p.s.  Of course, my area isn't Nokia, no, no, no, it's Huawei.  So I can't even get that option.  Now that UK Gov have back-heeled the Chinese, I can't see a multi-port option for me arriving any time soon.

p.p.s.  Looks like there is a Huawei version.  If I were a volume customer AliExpress would sell me them for less than £15 a unit.  I bet Openreach pay somewhere between a fiver and a tenner.  Like I said - peanuts.

 

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ChunkyTheCurmudgeon
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Message 125 of 208

Re: DV and 3rd Party Router - Brick Wall Response

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S-G,

The SH2 has both a DECT functionality plus a traditional BT jack. Once they enable digital voice you can pair any DECT phone (within range) to it. But also, you can connect your legacy hard wiring to the phone jack, just the same as you can connect hard wire to the terminals provided in a NTE-5 jack on the wall.

No matter where I look I cannot find anything that tells me the maximum REN that this socket will support but I suspect if you stick to 4 (as per the tradition) or less it's not going to cause a wobble.

If and when they force me to DV I'll just transfer my legacy hard wiring over. I've even done all the prep, complete with a proper BT-style patch strip in a junction box in the loft.

As for your complaint question - no, I haven't tried any other route. I'm expecting to have more success by being a pain in the derriere customer than by throwing snowballs at Sauron's dark tower. What a great shame that the BT fibre technical people are so genuinely helpful but completely powerless to solve things.
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kpturner
Aspiring Contributor
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Message 126 of 208

Re: DV and 3rd Party Router - Brick Wall Response

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FWIW I raised a complaint with BT just to make a nuisance of myself and force them to consider the options and call me.  I received the call this morning.  It went OK given that I know the person who I was talking to had his hands tied behind his back.   My options are:
1) Switch to business to enable me to get the bridging mode capable hardware. Allegedly the costs might not be as prohibitive as I thought but I have yet to find out
2) Continue to pay for a landline but divert all calls to a mobile
3) Get rid of the landline and reduce my bill by £x per month
4) (Unofficially) hack around with the SH2 and my network to make it kinda work like a bridged device.

I am comfortable with at least giving option 4 a go because it is something I do regularly from a work perspective, but it certainly isn't something everyone on this thread would want to try. 

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licquorice
Distinguished Sage
Distinguished Sage
318 Views
Message 127 of 208

Re: Digital Voice with different Router

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@ChunkyTheCurmudgeon wrote:

Of course, all of this is easily solved if BT/Openreach could be bothered to make the effort, I just can't understand why they want to make everything so difficult.

THE SOLUTION - When Openreach pull in new fibre to a premises it is two core, of which only one is used for the ONT for the router.   All they need to do is provide a second ONT on the spare fibre (and of course, a second connection at the other end).  We could then have Digital Voice via a dumb SH2 and a proper fibre broadband with a decent third party router on the other.

Even better, they even have a 4 port ONT using a single fibre supposedly available this year https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/01/a-look-at-openreachs-future-4-port-ont-for-fttp-broadb...

At bulk purchase prices the extra cost of not making us all tie ourselves in knots would be peanuts.

 

p.s.  Of course, my area isn't Nokia, no, no, no, it's Huawei.  So I can't even get that option.  Now that UK Gov have back-heeled the Chinese, I can't see a multi-port option for me arriving any time soon.

p.p.s.  Looks like there is a Huawei version.  If I were a volume customer AliExpress would sell me them for less than £15 a unit.  I bet Openreach pay somewhere between a fiver and a tenner.  Like I said - peanuts.

 


Its got nothing to do with the cost of the ONT, an OLT only serves up to 32 ONTs and Openreach are hardly likely to want to provide 2 ports per customer just to provide DV alongside broadband,  because I don't suppose for a minute you would want to pay the full price for a second broadband circuit.

The simple answer is to have broadband without DV, use whatever hardware you like and use a third party VOIP provider for voice.

kpturner
Aspiring Contributor
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Message 128 of 208

Re: DV and 3rd Party Router - Brick Wall Response

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@kpturnerwrote:


4) (Unofficially) hack around with the SH2 and my network to make it kinda work like a bridged device.



This turned out to be surprisingly painless.   

  • Unplugged my 3rd party router from the ONT (left everything running)
  • I fired up the SM2, connected it to my ONT, waited for it to connect and then connected to it wirelessly with my laptop
  • I changed the IP address to 172.16.0.1
  • Changed my laptop to have a manual static IP address of 172.16.0.10
  • Disconnected and reconnected my laptop to the hub
  • Switched off the firewall
  • Switched off smart setup
  • Switched off UPnP
  • Switched off DHCP
  • Switched on the DMZ and selected my laptop (172.16.0.10)
  • Created a port forwarding rule for ports 1 to 65535 for TCP/UDP to 172.16.0.10
  • Changed my laptop back to obtaining its IP address via DHCP
  • Connected it to my 3rd party router wirelessly
  • Changed my 3rd party router to have a static IP address of 172.16.0.10 (rather than PPPoE) 
  • Changed the gateway to 172.16.0.1
  • Changed the DNS to  1.1.1.1 and 8.8.8.8 (Google)
  • Plugged the WAN cable from the third party router into a LAN port on the SH2

That was it.  All worked fine straight away......which I confess I was rather surprised about.

BT had sent me two IP phones and a Digital Voice Adaptor so I connected those to the SH2 with WPS and hopefully all will work when they switch me over.

ChunkyTheCurmudgeon
Contributor
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Message 129 of 208

Re: Digital Voice with different Router

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Yes liquorice, that's an awesome solution for anyone who isn't locked into a fixed term with BT and doesn't mind paying extra for a 3rd party voice service that BT are contracted to supply for free for the same term. Oh, and doesn't mind losing their existing land line number that may be quite precious and important.    Can you imagine BT releasing my number for free before contract end, even if I'm going to keep paying for broadband?

Don't me started on the four month story of trying to get FTTP installed when Openreach had a 20 years old, wrong address and postcode for the property, which meant they insisted we didn't exist and so couldn't port the number from PlusNet to BT. Four months. In an area where Virgin and the rest have no presence so OR is the only available provider.

You can rest assured that once the passing of the seasons frees me from BT's grasp I'll be looking at the alternatives.  I'll do all the work but in the end will be trapped by the importance of keeping the number, I'm sure..

I'm at a loss to understand why even on a single fibre, if others can provide separate broadband and VoIP without doubling up on equipment in the cabinet or elsewhere BT can't. But of course, they can. It's easier though to stick the one size fits all, you're having it whether you like it or not solution down throats like a line of foie gras geese.

My only consolation is that when I was a (big) commercial customer of BT it was even worse. In those days if you were big enough to have a major account manager you might as well be talking to the Borg. Happy days.

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S_G
Contributor
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Message 130 of 208

Re: Digital Voice with different Router

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@licquoricewrote:

@ChunkyTheCurmudgeonwrote:

Of course, all of this is easily solved if BT/Openreach could be bothered to make the effort, I just can't understand why they want to make everything so difficult.

THE SOLUTION - When Openreach pull in new fibre to a premises it is two core, of which only one is used for the ONT for the router.   All they need to do is provide a second ONT on the spare fibre (and of course, a second connection at the other end).  We could then have Digital Voice via a dumb SH2 and a proper fibre broadband with a decent third party router on the other.

Even better, they even have a 4 port ONT using a single fibre supposedly available this year https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/01/a-look-at-openreachs-future-4-port-ont-for-fttp-broadb...

At bulk purchase prices the extra cost of not making us all tie ourselves in knots would be peanuts.

 

p.s.  Of course, my area isn't Nokia, no, no, no, it's Huawei.  So I can't even get that option.  Now that UK Gov have back-heeled the Chinese, I can't see a multi-port option for me arriving any time soon.

p.p.s.  Looks like there is a Huawei version.  If I were a volume customer AliExpress would sell me them for less than £15 a unit.  I bet Openreach pay somewhere between a fiver and a tenner.  Like I said - peanuts.

 


Its got nothing to do with the cost of the ONT, an OLT only serves up to 32 ONTs and Openreach are hardly likely to want to provide 2 ports per customer just to provide DV alongside broadband,  because I don't suppose for a minute you would want to pay the full price for a second broadband circuit.

The simple answer is to have broadband without DV, use whatever hardware you like and use a third party VOIP provider for voice.


 

This is not that simple - I do want to have BT supplied number etc.
I don't suppose BT would be discounting the broadband package by anything close to what equivalent VoIP service would cost?
The true solution here is to move the whole gateway to ONT - single circuit, possible portability when moving to other providers. ONT should have the good old fashioned phone jack. Possibly, as an option an expansion port (that being USB or something else) that would enable a dongle or other proprietary device of the provider.

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