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Message 1 of 9

BT Broadband

Hi, I moved into a house about six weeks ago and the previous owner had BT broadband. I ordered Vodafone full fibre a few weeks before we moved in and after the survey were informed the costs were £1,000 and they weren't paying it so the order would be cancelled.

We asked our neighbours and they said they had the same issue, were quoted £15,000 to have poles put up and they have FTTC only, with a copper line from the cabinet. Speeds are reasonable.

I phoned BT two weeks ago and explained this. I didn't want full fibre as not available, i wanted FTTC. The guy was very helpful and placed an order for Fibre 2 which should work without needing any poles put up etc.

I rang BT last week and was told the order had went through for full fibre but the cost of putting up poles was under the limit they cover so it wouldn't be a problem.

Rang again today as i hadn't heard anything to be told the cost was £1000 more than what they are prepared to pay so i would have to pay it to proceed. If it don't proceed the order will be cancelled and i'm back to square one.

So is Fibre 2 actually FTTC or FTTP? How do i get this resolved?

Thanks,
Jason

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Message 2 of 9

Re: BT Broadband

@jgibson147369 

Welcome to this user forum for BT Residential phone and broadband customers.

Do you have an outstanding order with BT?

Its Openreach not BT or EE that provide the network.

Use the address checker on the page below, and post the results, but edit out your address details first, but leave the exchange name and cabinet number showing.

https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL
Please include all notes at the bottom.

 

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Message 3 of 9

Re: BT Broadband

Hi Keith,

Yes I have an open order for Fibre 2 with BT. I have been informed that the order will be cancelled unless i pay below:

As discussed here is a breakdown of the charges for installation of fibre to your property.

THE COSTS ARE:
SURVEY = 312.60
POLE = 694.59
TOTAL = 1007.19

This is over and above the �2400 that BT cover for installation.

I'll try the link now.

Thanks,

Jason

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Message 4 of 9

Re: BT Broadband

The broadband availability checker isn't accepting my address (or any it seems), and i don't have UPRN, phone number or Access Line ID. Is there any alternative?

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Message 5 of 9

Re: BT Broadband

Fibre 2 , is both FTTP and FTTC , however when ordering if it’s FTTP that is available , its prefixed with ‘Full Fibre’ F2 , so on the ordering portal for F2 , if it says ‘full fibre’ it’s FTTP , if it doesn’t it’s FTTC , but ( the important bit ) once FTTP is available it’s the default network, it’s not possible to order new FTTC once FTTP is available, the ordering portal knows what’s available in any location, and only displays the appropriate products .

ECC , excess construction costs are extremely rare , so are not normally a consideration, it’s only once they exceed a generous level that they are applied and then only the ‘excess’ is charged for , not the entire construction amount .


I’m not suggesting this is anything like your situation, but if a millionaire living at the end of a 1/2 mile private drive had a copper cable provided years previously and wanted to get FTTP , expecting them to make a contribution to the costs isn’t unreasonable, otherwise effectively every other customer that doesn’t live at the end of a 1/2 mile private driveway is subsiding the millionaire’s installation costs …however I do accept that the alternative to use FTTC when the FTTP ECC costs are unacceptable should be available…and AFAIK there is a mechanism when ECC’s ( excess construction costs ) are refused to be paid , that it’s possible to ‘force’ a FTTC order through when the ‘system’ will default to FTTP .


Out of curiosity, post your address return from here , it’s the survey returns that will be interesting.
https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL/AddressHome

The survey return look like this
Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG Feed with no anticipated issues.

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Message 6 of 9

Re: BT Broadband

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@Keith_Beddoe got it to work...

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Message 7 of 9

Re: BT Broadband

That is interesting, your address states it’s ducted but congested, that doesn’t mean it is congested, in that it wasn’t tested and verified to be congested but the visual evidence noted on survey , suggested it may be ‘blocked’ , ( so a cautious KC12 assure approach is warranted ) , congested /blocked duct isn’t normally a chargable event , it’s made serviceable as part of a standard installation.


WBC SoGEA , is shown as an exception ( SoGEA is FTTC without a PSTN phone service and is standard offering in FTTC areas ) , an exception is for NSP ( non served premises ) an example of an NSP  is a water level monitor next to a river , it’s a box of tricks on a stick not a ‘property’ and OR have no obligation to provide service to them , they do on request , the water company or environment agency or whoever  pay the full costs of installation, your costs seem to be as a NSP rather than a regular dwelling.


Unless you are a millionaire and live on the end of a 1/2 mile driveway , this tale suggests to me that FTTP is available ( no ECC ) but an insistence to use FTTC is forcing any order down the inappropriate NSP route which is automatically costed as a ‘you pay for the full installation’ it’s not really appropriate for a regular dwelling , although it also the case that FTTP in a regular domestic setting can ( but rarely ) attract ECC ‘s, if not that the address isn’t ducted at all ( that makes the survey incorrect ) .


Perhaps you can give an indication of the situation your property is in , for example , how far away from the public highway it is ( where the FTTP equipment is located ) and any other pertinent information, like is there actually ( to your knowledge) a duct to the property from the public highway , or you know it’s a buried armoured cable , obviously stopping short of identifying the actual address .

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Message 8 of 9

Re: BT Broadband

Hi @iniltous 

The property is on a lane just off a main road, maybe 200m from the main road. I met the guy that was out from Openreach and he was able to lift the manhole(?) cover and show me the line which goes to to the property. He said that when the house was built they didn't put a duct in, just concreted over the line, so he couldn't use that duct to provide fibre. I assume the current line is copper?

He showed me where the pole was on the main road, which you could see from just outside my house, and showed me where the new pole would go. The line would run from the pole on the main road, to the new pole and straight to my house. He said one pole was normal enough and that it shouldn't be a problem. First vodafone cancelled my order as they wouldn't cover the costs, and now BT are doing the same (after saying last week that they would cover the costs).

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Message 9 of 9

Re: BT Broadband

OK , it’s a bit like being a detective replying on this forum , each interaction , a little more info is revealed.
Unfortunately, it appears as though the survey note is wrong , congested duct isn’t appropriate if there is no duct , I would suggest it’s a DIG cable ( buried armoured copper cable ) that the previous copper service used ,
If it’s around 200m down a lane  from the public highway, is this on your own ‘lane’ or is it also public highway ? , it makes difference.

Historically, ‘BT’ had a universal service obligation ( USO ) , for a copper pair telephone service, anyone asking for service couldn’t be reasonably denied, this is the origin of excess construction costs , BT would stump up the first £3400 of any construction cost  , after that the customer paid the remainder of the total cost , if someone chose to live on the side of a mountain ECC was likely, more conventional dwellings wouldn’t attract ECC , if someone was liable for ECC but they wouldn’t pay , then the USO wasn’t valid and not enforceable so they got no service.


There is no comparable USO for fibre , there is a USO that guarantees 10Mb , but if 10Mb is available from anywhere , Alternative Network, cable , mobile signal etc , then OR don’t have to provide FTTP service unless it commercially beneficial ( or the Government subsidies it via BDUK or similar ) generally they do utilising the same type of ECC rules but there is no obligation

,

The problem often is when FTTP is technically available, but the ECC unacceptable to a regular citizen , getting new service on the now redundant copper cable is problematic.


No ISP ‘actually ever ‘cover the costs’ , that’s an urban myth , the costs are presented to the ISP , because Openreach have no relationship with end users they can’t directly  charge an end user , OR  advise the ISP of the costs , the ISP asks you if you are prepared to pay , some think the ISP will cover the ECC , I’ve never heard of it actually being done , but if OR get paid the ECC , it’s the ISP that ‘writes the cheque’ as there is no other way to do it , you pay the ISP , the ISP pays OR , but this is a murky area.

I would say there are two issues ,
If you want FTTP , then any construction needed isn’t necessarily covered by a USO if you have any way at all of getting 10Mb or better  ( so you pay or you don’t get it ) or you need an exception to get SoGEA to use the copper , because you appreciate that FTTP will cost you more , but not using the NSP route , any SoGEA  can be ‘limited’ to telephone only or less than 40Mb ( so if you wanted faster tough luck ) , so ordering F2 ( for example ) even if the copper cable exists, may not qualify as an exception.


The rules around ECC were complicated when only BT we’re available, other ISP having wholesale access and FTTP have made a complicated subject even more opaque, but in general, any  network assets provided exclusively for your use ( hence asking about the ‘lane’  ) hence a pole on the public highway isn’t a chargable asset , but on your own road that only you could ever benefit from  is chargable asset , a grey area is if the lane isn’t yours , but it’s still privately owned by someone ( and you just have access rights ) 

It really is a complicated subject , if you feel the interpretation of these rules is incorrect, there isn’t really an appeals process, as you have posted here , presumably BT are your choice ( well second choice as you used Vodafone first ) , you could  try contacting the Chairman’s Office / Executive level compliants , who may be able to check the ‘rules’ have been correctly applied , but if ( for example ) 10Mb was available from 4G/5G ‘BT’ are under no obligation to provide service 

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