VDSL drop outs

[ardenwasp]

Hi all,
We have been plagued by VDSL drop outs multiple times per day for a few weeks now. We have a home hub 6 (recently replaced) on a 80/20 FTTC and finally over poles to the house. Line checks are always fine. We have tried quiet line check, removing power line adapters from my home network etc. The home hub goes to green/flashing magenta/red then blue. Sometimes it can take an hour to re-establish the broadband but usually will just be a few minutes. Our WiFi is handled by a a MERCUSYS mesh network in access mode so the homehub does all the routing. So far we have had two BT home engineers, a new master socket and home hub and finally openreach came this morning who said the line is fine/ he says he also checked the cabinet etc. he also checked the line with his equipment for errors for 15 mins and it was fine, but almost as soon as he left it went off again. It doesn’t happen at any particular times, but certainly happens less when we are not at home so wondered if it might be a REIN/SHINE issue. The engineer thought this unlikely but hasn’t particularly checked for it. I have been around the house with my AM radio set to 612 and I don’t think I have found any REIN culprits, but I am no expert. No other neighbours have had issues to our knowledge. We do have a lot of devices, 58 at the last count. I have no idea if this is overloading the hub.

So we are stuck, the broadband is going off several times a day, so is our BTTV and most of our recordings are partial or error out due to the lose of connection. 
Does anyone, particularly the mods have any idea where we go from here, or do we have to convince BT to cancel the contract early and move to Starlink for internet and sky stream for TV? We have no FTTP at our exchange and no cable options. 
Grateful for peoples thoughts. 

[Edinburgh-wg]

What make is your powerline? Powerline adapters, especially cheaper ones, are known to cause interference with VDSL signal because of the shared frequencies between the two. This is usually manifested by disconnections at random times. In the first instance, you should remove the powerline adapters and monitor the line without them, especially that you intimated that when you're not at home, there are fewer disconnections. If it turns out that it's powerline adapters that are causing issues, you *might* get better results by using Devolo ones that *mitigate* (though not completely eliminate) their impact on VDSL frequencies. 

SHINE is very difficult to identify/locate and Openreach won't actively pursue any such instances as these are outwith their control. REIN is easier to identify, but Openreach aren't obliged to locate it either, unless it affects a huge number of customers (see the Internet for a story about a pensioner's TV knocking broadband off in a village): these coincide with electrical equipment starting/powering down like boilers firing up etc at specific times. You can try to eliminate your equipment causing issues by powering down your home equipment (lights, fridges, washing machines, phones, TV boxes etc. etc.) and powering on one by one, but as someone whose line suffered from SHINE for years, it may be that the issue is elsewhere, as it could be your neighbour's equipment that can cause it. If you notice that powering on specific equipment knocks your broadband, then you may be lucky.  

Generally, using equipment that is branded (well known makes, even for phone chargers etc.), rather than equipment that can be gotten on Aliexpress ensures, though not completely eliminates, that their impact on the line is minimal. Ensuring that you don't run extension cables, especially when you have powerline adapters, parallel to tel. lines is also a good practice.

Type 'devolo optimises the interaction between VDSL and Powerline Communication' in Google to find out more.

Finally, remember that your line will be 'within parameters' when it comes to Openreach testing it. 'Fine' in their words therefore means 'within parameters', which can also mean that they're aware of SHINE/REIN but it's outwith their remit to identify it. 

Good luck - it'll require a lot of patience and determination to identify SHINE/REIN! Using a radio to locate SHINE/REIN is pointless because all equipment makes noise and such equipment may not necessarily result in disconnections. Usually, electrical equipment making a popping noise is something to watch for its effect on the line. And as you know from your schooling, copper lines act as an antenna and are good at picking up signal from elsewhere, which means that it could be your neighbour's equipment that is causing an issue etc. etc. 

[ardenwasp]

Thanks for your reply.

Hi sorry, wasn’t clear - I’ve removed the powerline adaptors from my network as I had heard they could cause problems. No improvement at all.

I am worried its REIN or SHINE, but it doesn’t seem to correspond to any particular piece of equipment being turned on or off. Not sure how to take things from here and my service is terrible/unusuable.

[Edinburgh-wg]

If it's SHINE, there's nothing you can do about it. Even changing providers won't change anything so you'd need to learn to live with it. REIN is easier to identify as with it the line drops at regular times. 

Having a lot of devices can also have an impact. Usually, residential routers can handle a few, but with smart homes increasing in the number of devices, it can have an impact, too, due to capacity issues: if all devices require bandwidth, then it may be that there isn't enough to provide all at once.

I'm afraid you'll need to do some testing yourself. 

[ardenwasp]

Thanks again. If another provider was Starlink would SHINE affect the connection? I didn't think it would.

I would rather stay with BT, but they don't seem to be able to help me.

I have switched the routing over to my mesh network tonight in case my devices are overloading the HH6. I appreciate I will get double NAT issues , but if that fixes things I would take that, or get a HG612 and put it in bridge mode (although that will probably stuff the EETV as I'm not sure my Mesh will handle multicast/IGMP etc.)

Will see how this goes.

[ardenwasp · Accepted solution]

So transferring the routing to my mesh network has fixed things. Why did it take me to work this out and not two in-home ‘guide’ visits, an openreach engineer and several phone calls until I worked it out myself. I obviously was overwhelming the homehub6 with the 58 devices and it was rebooting itself. Thankfully not REIN or SHINE. All I can say is that this has cost BT a fortune and they had no clue what was going on. More training required I think, that or more profits up in smoke.

PS why don’t the home hub error logs tell them what’s going on??

[Edinburgh-wg]

How is an openreach engineer to know that you have so many devices? Also, they deal with the tel. line that also supplies your internet, and not your home WiFi: the terminating point is the broadband socket, just for the future reference, so you can't accuse an openreach engineer of not realising about an issue that you yourself should know about and that's of your own making.

If you connect that many devices, which in your case is excessive, as even broadband routers don't handle that many, and as I already mentioned in my previous post, it can have an impact, maybe BT should look into providing you with a business connection - and charge you proportionately to the amount of data used - and not a residential one.

Rather than blame openreach, consider yourself lucky in this case that openreach didn't charge you for the visits since, clearly, they're entitled to do so in this particular case. 

[ardenwasp]

I didn't blame Openreach. I blame BT. And yes they did know the number of devices connected, as when a spoke to a telephone guide they told me after they logged into the home hub.  

BT sent Openreach, I didn't ask for them, so what you are saying is utterly absurd about charging me. Where I have broken any T&C's. Forum topics on this very issue suggest the hub could theoretically take any number of devices.

I have many IoT devices - CCTV cameras etc. They all add up these days. The MESH network just to get the wifi to all my rooms (its a large bungalow) is 7 nodes i.e devices on the network. So with an IOS device for the kids and phones for the parents, CCTV cameras, some smart TVs and the laptops/PCs we are already well into the 30s. Who are you to say I have an excessive number of devices?  

What I am saying is that BT should know their product, and why on earth can the error logs not  tell BT what the problem was? That would save them and their customers time and money.

Your replies started off helpful (thanks for those), but your last comment was anything but.